Jeff Altman on Depression, Comedy, and Finding Light Through Dark Seasons

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Welcome to. He cast the official podcast of

he changed it as always I am Mike Chisholm as always I am

really excited to be here that is not lit motion.

If you've listened to any of these shows that we have done

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have um you know, that I am not Not be essing when I say that.

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If you wouldn't mind again, I can't wait for a time where I

don't have to ask for this. Once we hit that critical mass,

the scales have tipped in the, in the, in the way that I don't

have to say it, could you please like, share, subscribe to

podcast. We would really appreciate that

as well. One day, I won't have to ask

that anymore. We can go from there.

So now that that business is out of the way, let us talk about

today's guest. I am really excited about

today's Mike. You see that every damn time?

Yes, I know. I say it every damn time, but

they're all excited for different reasons.

This one here. It hits me right in the heart.

The excitement I have for this guests that we have today,

right? In the heart, I've talked a

little bit about some of the David Letterman side projects

that I do in my life. You know I started to let him in

podcast and this might be the first time on this podcast that

I've actually announced that. I don't necessarily want to

cross pollinate our to Platforms that we doing here.

But, but at the same time, so many times when we've heard men

come and tell their stories, we've talked to psychologists,

we've talked to actors, we've talked to athletes, we've talked

to life coaches of all different disciplines, they've talked

about purpose and and even on he cast, we've talked a lot about

how one of men's major pain points here in 2022 is are they

living a life of purpose rather than a life?

That was either told to that they were supposed to live or

they're just Tunnel vision, not knowing what they want to be.

And we've talked about that a lot.

And the reason that I started the Letterman podcast is

essentially, I don't want to be a hypocrite, I don't want to be

a guy on here. That's preaching all this stuff

with with guests professionals, who are much smarter than I am

and talking about this stuff. I don't want to be that guy but

yet not in my time also, yearning and stretching and

doing things that make me feel like I'm living life in color

and so. So, So I decided to do that

because I am a tremendous Enthusiast of David Letterman

and, and there are some connections that are in there

with his world and I just wanted to, I've had this desire to

start this podcast and and so I started a few months ago and

it's been going really, really well, it's created a lot of

experiences for me that just, I never thought I would have.

And in that time, I met a guy who happens to be a really good

friend of David Letterman and a world-class performer actor.

Stand-up comedian. He is the he's the favorite

comedian of many comedians out there.

He's one of the most talented people I've ever watched and I

have watched him since I was a kid on screen and it was funny

as name is Jeff Altman. And and when Jeff and I started

talking off-camera and I was getting to know him a little

bit. Basically, essentially begging

him to come on, the Letterman podcast.

We were getting to know each other and I told him about the

men's mental Wellness podcast, that I host I told about he cast

about What we're all a part of here and immediately, we zoned

in on that and we started talking about depression.

We started talking about a few episodes ago, we had Bruce Ross

on, who's talked about his journey with depression and just

mental health in general. And Jeff said to me, well, I

would very much like to be a guest on that show as well.

He threw it out there and I'm like, Yeah, job.

I'd like to have you on this podcast to that would be really

cool to talk about mental health from your perspective.

And that's exactly what we're doing today.

Jeff Altman. I cannot.

Thank you enough for putting up with me for another

conversation. This one, he rammed in a very

different direction. Thank you so much for taking

time out of your schedule. You're a legend in the

entertainment world, you're a legend in to me and my heart.

Thank you so much for being on he cast today.

Jeff, well, it's A great pleasure and especially I think

the incentive for coming on was the pay.

Yeah we're all pretty damn excited about the pay that that

he cast has been giving all of us were pretty pretty stoked

about it. No, it's a pleasure to be here.

Mike. Oh man, thank you so much.

I'm gonna switch the gallery view so you can kind of hear us

both and and see us here. I yeah I got to ask right off

the cuff. When I told you what it was what

I was doing with the Letterman podcast you were like, yes, I

am. Excited.

I get it. I understand how folks would

want to pass on the knowledge and everything that Dave and

Company have done and you were really supportive.

But, when I told you about the men's mental Wellness, podcast,

things took a quick, right turn, and you got really interested in

that? What was it about?

That idea? That got you.

So interested in helping to support, or did you just take

pity on me and say, oh, this guy needs a lot of help.

I'll support him in whatever he needs to do.

No, no, I have had a Several brushes with mental health,

personally in my life and I have been always interested in

Psychology. I went to school at a place that

was fairly academic. And so I ever since I've been in

college, I've been interested in Psychology Psychiatry and

whatever or whatever else would make me feel a little better.

And so I I am no stranger. To the world of depression and

Psychiatry, I want to go into this really.

I want to start with this. I don't want to, you know, bury

the lead I guess is the wrong term but I don't want to.

At the end of the day there has always been that you talk about

stigma. I mean, men's the whole reason,

my wife and her team are building this this entire

Enterprise is to get rid of the stigma when it comes to men.

And and when we're not Feeling right and what we do and and

many times the tendency is to bury it to not talk about it.

There's another stigma. Oh go ahead.

I'm sorry. Mike that please I did forget.

I just forgot what I was gonna say Sigma, the stigma have one

covid. I have long cold, winter.

No, I was going to say that the people I think who have suffered

in their lifetimes. Yeah, with depression, would be

eager to come on here and talk to you and what I was going to

mention is that every day of my life.

I pray for the guys who come come back from Afghanistan and

other, you know, places of combat and War and have PTSD,

which is a form of depression. Yeah.

And Perhaps OCD. And, you know, I just, I just

prayed that they'll step forward and get some help because you

were talking about the stigma of men, not wanting to do.

Well, you take a, you know, a Burly Marine Yacht comes back

from Afghanistan and he's what they used to call Shell Shock.

Yeah, I can the first world war and you don't want to come

forward and say, you know, geez, on my feeling good.

I really think I need some help with my brain.

Absolutely. And I mean, that is a pathway

that Kandi and her team have been going.

We certainly have had our share of Representatives of folks from

the military on he cast so far. Just scratching the surface of

what we want to do. We have some footage of one of

the top Generals in the Canadian Armed Forces and believe it or

Not we got Armed Forces up here in Canada.

We actually do. And and and I make light of that

because, you know, you look at the United States and the

magnitude, the exponential magnitude of the size of the US

military. That is something that we

certainly certainly want to be a help in.

We've got some footage of the top General, when it comes to

mental health, in the Canadian Forces and he has this, it's a

somber somber piece of footage where he is.

Talking about how it's the amount of suicides, the men who

don't reach out who don't, who can't bear to the idea of

publicizing how they feel, and they succumb to suicide.

And I mean, I certainly there are, there are many other

avenues how this can come out, badly violence, your body, heart

attack, your body can turn against you, heart, attack

Strokes, all things like that, by keeping this crap in, but,

but, and, and the one thing that he said though, was, he said,

okay, all of these men who end their life tragically after

Heroically surveying. Um, you know, sometimes, just

mere months before the idea, that, that these men who passed

every single one of them have a phone in their pocket and and

the idea that's one of the things that takes Candace and

her team and Spurs them on, is the idea that well, what if in

that phone there was some sort of a silver bullet, and what if

we, as a group, you know, the mechanism for firing that Silver

Bullet. Took away that stigma, and

that's what we want to do. We want to take away the

freight, we're taking back the phrase man up your, about these

groups that are taking In back phrases today, the idea of man

up this is something he changed it wants to do man up, you know,

used to mean exactly what you're talking about, burying shit.

You know, putting it down, we want to make it, then I'll wear

your Manning up where it's like, no, I'm going to take

responsibility for how I'm feeling.

I'm going to go through and, and, and, and find some people

that I can talk to you. Whether its family friends,

whatever, where I can empty that glass, where I can let the

pressure out of the balloon or whatever, that's what Manning up

truly. Truly is gonna be when we're

done with it and, and I appreciate you saying, That the

military, I mean, oh my goodness.

And then it's just other regular guys who are doing what they

were told to do and this is where I appreciate the

Entertainer aspect and having your point of view on here

because many entertainers, go counterculture to what they were

told to do. They didn't go out and get a

good job with good benefits and and by the house and get the the

the family and all of that, and they just they went on their own

path. But there's A lot of guys out

there who are just trying to find themselves.

And so this is a very, very important topic that we have

here. I just monologue done, Jeff,

almond. I'm sorry.

You're the one that should be talking more.

But, but yes, you've I think you've hit it exactly right

there. Well, all I can say is that I

wish that people understood that, it takes a man to come

forward and say. Geez, look, I'm hurting, you

know, and I need help because self-preservation is still, you

know, Paramount to any living human, you know, and, you know,

having to succumb to your feelings and turn to suicide is

certainly not what any of us want to see how Open.

No. Absolutely.

And I do want to, I do want to talk to you about this because I

mean, you're a world-class Entertainer to be sure, but the

circles that you you crossed, and we're in four years, are the

upper echelon of stand-up comedy.

And and I mean there, I can't tell you how many times over my

life. I'm 46 at the time of this

recording. I can't tell you how many times

in my life, I've heard the debate or the idea of the the

The stand-up comedian is somebody, who is a broken

individual, or someone who has mental health things, or

whatever. I hear Jerry Seinfeld come

across and he says the exact opposite.

No, it's not like that. It's just like any other

profession. You're going to have people on

all ends of the spectrum. I don't know that it's it's that

simple necessarily and I'm super curious, a good friend of yours

who came up with, you Robin Williams.

Like, you look at some of these and there are other examples as

well of folks, who came up with a maybe just after you like Sam

Kinison or people. To The Comedy Store that that

led lives that some would call kind of destructive.

And, and at the same time, you know, this idea of making people

laugh, do you think there's anything to it or are you more

on the Seinfeld side of things are stand-up comedians?

You know, exercising and an exercise of of mental health in

what they do. Well, it depends on how I

suppose the Impetus to take the stage is viewed and and you know

if you're going up there just to you know, cement a craft, well

then maybe Jerry's right? But if you're going up there

because you need to get laughs because you found this this this

sort of pathway in your life to feel good by getting laughs.

Swell when you don't get them, you tend to not feel so good and

when you do get them, you do. So there's this kind of rolling

up and down that can happen because nobody always does.

Well, I guess unless you're Jerry or Rodney, Dangerfield

bless his heart and I wish you were still with us and other

people like that who would just be going and, you know, kill

performing their craft. But but but for me, I know is an

example. The notion of getting laughs has

been with me since I was a little kid and when I don't, or

when I feel ignored, I don't feel as good and as vibrant and

as cogent, you were the class clown growing up, right?

I guess, so yeah, no, I was, I was the class clown in high

school and sort of a funny guy in college and you know, and I

tried I think my comedy even is somewhat reminiscent of that

notion of the Class Clown, you know, I No, I was not

necessarily A monologist. I get up on stage and smash my

own on Barstool and fall down or I do some strange character.

Like I was doing in high school and, you know, it just, it just

has kept on and, you know, kept me in the kind of in the groove,

you know, it's funny, you know, it's a very serious topic that

we have here but every time that I talk to Jeff on the phone or

that we've had an interaction those voices just Like, that's

you and I fucking love it. Like, it's so great and it does,

I didn't, we didn't believe it or not, everybody.

We didn't pre-interview for this.

I think I, I assumed you were the class clown because I

remember growing up, what the folks in my, in my high school

classes that made me laugh, the kind of antics and things that

they did and it worked, it's reminiscent for sure.

Your comedy, however, though I'm going to Say this, with all of

the respect in the world, deceptively intelligent, because

you would do things that were, you know, kind of crazy or zany

or or wacky. But then you would break into

something that shows tremendous Talent, OR tremendous

intelligence or Insight, or things like that.

And you would put the two together, you put the smart in

the silly together. And I think that was one of the

things that so many people find, so Charming about about your

delivery and I mean, my very nice of you to say that I always

consider what I did was sort of Clownish, but, but it's

refreshing to hear you say there was some intelligence.

Hey man. I had the lowest SATs of anyone

who went to my school. Yeah.

I signed my name on the paper, I walked out and that only got you

to the third lowest. Can you believe that?

What the heck? Did he hear two people do?

Maybe they spelled their names wrong or something.

You shouldn't have spelled your name right?

Jeff that's right. Good question.

Well, and, and to say on stand up for a second here and I

appreciate the fact that you're willing to talk about, you know,

some of the elements that you've gone through in your life.

And we will certainly. But again, just to stand stand

up for a second because you are, I have you on here and you came

up in during what would be considered a legendary

groundbreaking time of stand-up one where the top acts of today,

look to you guys and gals. And there were some gals.

Not as many as there are today. But there were some think of a

lane and some of these other folks.

Yeah, with you and well in Merrill.

I mean, I Merrill Marco. I mean, oh my goodness, did talk

about a genius right there who came up but I think about

Richard Pryor, okay? And you look at where Richard

Pryor came from, some would consider him the greatest

stand-up of all time. Many people would consider him.

Yeah, you know, the prolific, I'm not sure about your

relationship with Carlin. But you look at those two

individuals, I just going to take Carlin and prior for a

second and And you think about what we've been told and what we

know about mental health and how it's important to you know

sometimes get some of these things out and dissect.

Those are two individuals right there where I look at some of

their acts polished some of their specials and it was them

pouring their heart out but then throwing the little humorous jab

at the end or as part of it, I can only imagine what it would

be like being in the clubs watching them work that Ariel

out and and the part of me that goes, okay?

So prior if you know anything about his background, that's him

working shit out on stage and actually helping his mental

health by doing that. That's the kind of thing that I

don't hear with the stand-up stigma, very much as you got

these individuals who actually they know themselves pretty well

because they work out their stuff and they do it in front of

a group of people many times live and on the Fly Yeah, I was

very fortunate. My kin that I had relationship

both the aforementioned. And I mean, I think the highest

compliment I was ever paid in 1977, maybe it was, was a, I was

walking out of The Comedy Store and Richard was right behind me

and he looked up, he said, you know, you and let them in the

best. You know, that was all I needed,

you know, just, you know, because I had some bad days and

when I heard that from Rich, but I thought to myself.

Yeah. I guess I'll keep this up.

Okay, yeah. Okay, you know, but he was

talking about the guys around The Comedy Store that night.

Yeah, no. I get it.

Whatever General, it wasn't in general because I certainly

wouldn't compare myself to either of them but or lat, Of

other people. But but I'll never forget that

in George Carlin was a buddy to. He did, he did a favor for me.

I put on a benefit in the San Fernando Valley back in 1980, I

think, and it was for cancer research at UCLA and George

Carlin came in and did for free shows for me.

Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, what

do you say, huh? Thank him for that.

You know? There's just no way and so I I

got along great with both those guys and they certainly were

Inspirations for me to continue doing stand-up.

I love that. You have an educated knowledge

about this and I'll try and be as I'm trying not to be

long-winded, Jeff but I just, I can't help it.

Sometimes I pick those two in particular because I was

long-winded last night. My wife had to leave the

bedroom. Hey, okay, you got two guys

here, who at the beginning of their careers, their act looked

a certain way, and I would even call it cookie cutter, because

it was revolutionary at the time still stand up, was in its

infancy, but their act was very for lack of a better term

homogenized, I would say. And then both of these guys,

Eyes had turning points in their life, made decisions, whatever

it was that made them kind of go click and they completely change

their act to what many would call, you know, biographical for

sure. But but but but real like where

they just changed their acts entirely like you look at George

Carlin and after he made that change, and you would have

gotten that Carlin during your benefits, that you talked about,

you know, it's almost like it's no.

No, we got to start being more authentic.

I think with both those two guys, and, and while they were

just as funny as ever, I find that their material was even

more powerful because they were being so authentic in who they

were as and they completely change their Styles right now, I

don't know what to say to that except you're absolutely

correct. I mean, George Carlin was, you

know, doing the hippie-dippie weatherman and yeah, and the

stuff that, you know, the, then tie and the suit and, and the

hair combed over and a nice pompadour and you know Richard

was in Vegas going, you know I saw today you know you know you

he was just doing Straight Ahead stuff and they both broke down

and turn more Inward and more To themselves, be be honest.

And that's what they both did your so.

I mean I got nothing to say about that.

You're absolutely right way. Well and when it comes to mental

wellness and all of that, I think that we as men, I think we

fire on an extra two cylinders when we are being able to live

that authentically and B&B those, if we can be authentic in

what we do, you know we're winning and we're moving ahead

that much farther and and I think authenticity, It is

something that many men struggle with whether it's a matter of

fitting in whether it's a matter of, you know, doing what we're

supposed to do, because our parents, our spouse or someone

else expectations, you know, responsibilities that were

shouldering. I personally my viewpoint is

guys, like you got a chance to live their life a lot more

authentically with all the ups and downs that you've had in

your life because being an Entertainer is not an easy gig

with all the things that you have to deal.

With not knowing where your next checks are going to come from.

Sometimes and whatnot, was that freeing for you?

Because you were living authentically?

Well, let me say there, certainly was a differences in

my Persona off the stage than it was on the stage.

Take a guy like Richard, Lewis, for instance comes down line and

I think of myself his Persona wasn't so very different than he

was on stage. And I'm not saying that I was a

different guy. I wasn't really a different guy,

but there was the soft lied to me.

I think it. And a, a eventually a In two

instances, one in 1991. And again, in 1998, where I went

through some very, very depressing times and luckily

recovered but when impression look like for you, Jeff like

what, how did it manifest itself?

What did it feel like, well, in 1991 things had coalesced such

that II thought I was going to be losing everything I had and

in 1991, I had everything going I had to network shows on at the

same time I was hosting a show called the Sunday comics on Fox

and I was also on a show called nurses and NBC or I played the

male nurse and sequences of stuff went down.

And I thought to myself this is the end of my life.

Things are going to transpire. I'm going to lose all this, I'll

lose my family. I'll lose my.

You know, I just had a Child 2 years before and I just saw all

of it going, you know, down the drain and that swept me into a

what was be considered an anxious depression, which I

don't want to be judgmental. Exactly.

But I will say that an anxious depression I believe, I don't

know, you can't say which is the worst kind of depression, but

I'm going to venture to say they're anxious expression, is

it? Least in my opinion, is a

horrible thing to be in em. And I think that's what some

what PTSD is like, you know, you can, you explain anxious

depression as you see it, as the guy who went through it, what

was it Define it for some guys out there that might not know

where they are right now? They just kind of know that

there's something there. There are quiet depressions

where you'll maybe lie in bed all day and you know sleep or

you can't get out of bed or but and you feel like you don't want

to do anything and you're not interested in things.

You have maybe a reduced or greatly increased, appetite

appetites can change with depression.

In my case, it virtually kind of faded.

But I think an anxious depression is best described by

an old Steven Wright joke. He said, you used to say, you

know what, it feels like. When you're leaning back in your

chair and you almost go almost fall back and you fall over, he

should have used to say, that's what I feel like all the time.

Well, that isn't a bad description of an anxious

depression, you feel that moment of anxiety, but that's your

feeling that all the time. When you're feeling like you're

going to jump out of your skin all the time and it, in my case,

I was lucky. It started to Abate as the

evening came on, many depressions are formed by the

nature of the course of the day. You feel worse when you wake up

in the morning and better at night.

Some people feel okay, maybe when they wake up and shittier

at night. Yeah, my depression was

characterized by getting up and having that anxiety, Get me

immediately and just you feel like your heart is going to

pound out of your chest. Yeah.

And then as the evening would approach I was able to a work

and be feel a little bit better. So that was the etiology of my,

my anxious depression. I I felt just just awful all the

time with the exception of maybe Be late at night.

And I would stand, I remember standing when I would get up in

the morning or I would go to sleep at night standing in front

of the front of a picture of Muhammad Ali, who was maybe one

of my life Heroes. Yeah.

And I would, you know, I would say all of all times, all times

the greatest of all times and and I would, you know, make my

fists going. I say I'm going to get through

this, I'm going to get through this, and that, that was

probably. Get light.

And then I wake up in the morning and bang Joe.

Frazier, hit you like like, you know, in the 10th round or the

12th round of the 13th, round of the Ali, famous first Ali,

Frazier fight. Yeah.

And That's what an anxious depression is like and I might

do depressions. We're different equally as

menacing one was in 1991 as I'm talking about now.

And the other was the 1998 and that occurred because I had

stopped taking my medicine started playing around with what

I thought was. No need for medicine, I think I

started fiddling with st. John's Wort.

Yep. Which is something that people

will try if they're not assemblyman.

Yeah. I don't have much faith in

things that aren't prescribed. Yeah I really appreciate you

talking about this in 91 that what you described or what

Steven Wright describe that that feeling where you're almost fall

from a chair, except it doesn't go away.

That's all it is. Yeah.

The beginning of the day, for hours and hours and hours, until

you can kind of come back to yourself a little bit for the

evening. How long did that last was.

That was that weeks, was that months?

Mom, was it medication that that help normalize things for you?

Is that, is that kind of how you got out of it, or was it a

combination of medication and talking things out and figuring

things out? And realizing that the situation

you were in is temporary. And no matter what's going to

happen life is going to go on and learning lessons from that,

or was it a combination of all of them?

Well, when you're in it, when you're in the depression, I had

a good friend. If you remember a comedy team

called, Roger and Roger, That ring a bell.

Yeah, it does. The younger of the two or the

rather the smaller of the two Rogers.

Roger bear was probably my best friend on the west coast during

the years or certainly around the years that I was depressed.

And if it hadn't been for him, I don't know if I'd be talking to

you now, but he was with me every night to let me know that

this is going to end. Because when you're in it, there

is a hopelessness If it was a feeling that this will never go

away, this is how I'm going to feel for the rest of my life.

Yeah and that is the depressions.

Roger used to say that is the depression talking to you.

That is the depression telling you.

Yeah. And it's all bullshit.

Yes. Because even the worst of

depressed people have their depressions.

Eventually, usually lift. There are rare cases in which

the, I mean, if you talk to Dick Cavett, for instance, which I

did, he would tell you about non-ending depression and some

of the things that he had to go through to make it a bait which

were considered far-reaching and he he was in a very interesting

person that I talk to when I was depressed and he helped me a

little bit and but Roger bear being with me every night and

pulling me through was certainly a boon to my finally coming

through it and having Someone there and that's why everybody

needs to have someone. There all be it a psychiatrist,

a psychologist, a counselor, a friend, someone who they ended

mate, you know, it may not be the person who's closest to you

in the world. For instance it could be

couldn't could or could not be your wife.

It could or could not be your best friend.

It could be somebody who's tangential to your life.

Yeah but somebody with you is I think A big help to surviving.

Well, and this goes back to how we kind of started things, where

so many guys their tendency is to is to hide it away and to

keep it a secret and do not tell people.

And right there I think you've just talked about how a good

first step and then of course I mean we're not never not

advocating for professional help because many times that is

necessary, but it's begins with you telling somebody about it.

And somebody that that that cares, you know, I just was on.

Absolutely yeah. It's so important to have

somebody in your quarter, whoever that might be my wife.

And I we experienced that when we went to BC Children's

hospital with our granddaughter, you know, we were there for six

months with her every day, a different city, and we talked

about it in the book that we wrote about it in that

experience, and how some of our quote, unquote best friends.

They kind of faded away sometimes when we show

vulnerability, like this. There are people who are close

to Ooh, us where it makes them may be a little bit

uncomfortable. They can't, they can't stay in

the fire, they move away. But then he was the craziest

thing because when we went, it was kind of public around our

city. You know, everyone was rallying

around our little 18 month old granddaughter.

It was this, this this beautiful experience of community.

Coming together. We had acquaintances that were

in our life. We'd see them a couple times a

year at a function or a party. We knew them, but they weren't,

you know, in that friendship group and they just magnet it in

when Found out what we were going through because maybe they

had gone through something like that.

Or maybe they're just the way that their personality type or

their heart is set, up, is to be empathic, to be an empathy

vessel of empathy. And and when you're going

through something, if you throw it out there and you allow

whatever you want to call it, the universe or whatever to use,

allow someone to hear that story, and if they move forward

to you, the power in, not stifling it but being Honorable

and giving that to them, it can be life changing because that

might be the person you're talking about.

Well, I think that's the notion of therapy, anyway.

I think the notion of giving it up.

Yeah, yeah, I'll getting it out there and yeah, it was provide

some relief, you know, saying I feel shitty.

I feel terrible. I feel awful to someone else is

somewhat helpful. Oh yeah.

I'm staying. It's going to cure necessarily

the depression. But you asked me before Mike, I

wanted to get back to this if medicine.

Help me? Yes.

Yes, it's hard to say. So, you know, somebody let's say

who was depressed for say six months and they take medicine.

It's hard to say necessarily what happened to the depression

just disappear on its own and you were taking medicine or did

the medicine? Make it go away, right?

Well, I can say this, I would certainly rather be treated with

medicine then I would Just to take my chances roll the dice

and say gee. I hope it goes away.

Yeah. I in all cases I would use every

form of science and medicine that I could to help myself.

And I think everyone should take advantage of that idea yet the

the science and medicine and Psychiatry are there to help and

it is not a fallacy or a To just to make that statement, I think

it's true. And it certainly is not what's

the word? Its It's unmanly to to come

forward and say, geez I'm really hurting.

It's absolutely part of the Cure.

I think to come forward and say I'm hurting, I need help.

Can you help me? Yeah.

How can I get help? Where can I get help?

How much is the help? What do I have to do?

Or your free places to go? Are your are their meetings to

go new for people who are depressed.

Yeah, anything like That can only help.

I appreciate where you're coming from.

We're at the stage with he changed it right now.

It's happening right now where I have been I don't know what you

want to call it. I-i've been compelled to help

start the, the men small group aspect to, he changed.

I mean, the whole if you look at it, there's this huge Playbook

as to where he changed. It's going to go part of it, is

the idea of a small group that can be either the done over

Zoom, or in person or whatever, where it's like Layman, it's

not, you know, you don't need therapists and things like that,

but at the same time it's a place where guys can go and they

can, they can do that. They can.

They can, they can get things out there with, you know, four

or five other guys, listening number one.

But number two, maybe can offer feedback can offer things.

Like what you just said to take the edge off because it's one

thing to know that you're depressed and to know that you

probably need help. And that be an overwhelming.

It almost seems like it just It's almost undoable.

But if you got two or three other people that are there that

are saying, no, no, you can do this, it's okay to do this.

It's almost a permission thing. And and and many people have

done this before. You are not alone.

I think you are not alone as a huge control.

Your You are not alone is so important why it is, isn't it?

Oh right on the money? You know you sit in front of us

the chi interest and he says you know I treat scores of people

with your Ori or you talk to friends or you sit in a group of

people who are depressed. And, and you begin to see that

this is not unusual. This isn't something.

You know the only, you know, pipsqueaks.

Remember that word tip? Yeah, sure do.

Here's a pipsqueak. You know?

It's asking for help in and out. Itself is Curative.

I could not agree more. So 91 you get through that

storm, things start to, you know, pieces, that were that may

have fallen down are now being reformed into new ways and life

is becoming The New Normal of whatever that looks like that

temporary situation is now not nearly as hot and it's in the

rearview mirror at that point. Are you medicated the entire

time? And then we love 298.

Oh, go ahead. Yeah.

That was my problem. Mike II was medicated and just I

think I was taking Prozac. Okay, and then and now we have

we have tempered that with another drug.

I don't take Prozac anymore. I take another drug called

Effexor. Okay.

Is a maintenance drug and something called Abilify or

error Peppers all yet. Which is, which is an

anti-psychotic. Yeah, and a lot of people may

not be aware. We're of this but antipsychotic

drugs used in very small doses like Zyprexa Abilify.

Yeah, these drugs when used an adjunct, with an antidepressant

can be very, very helpful life-saving.

Even people who are psychotic, who take these drugs are taking,

you know, 15 to 30 mg. Let's say of Abilify I was

taking I take two milligrams. That every day, right?

Keeps a level to level the this is an SSRI, right?

No it's in the antipsychotics which is different than okay?

Okay. Yeah Prozac Prozac and Other

Drugs like Prozac or ssris? Okay okay now we're what we're

talking about here. I'm just going to make sure that

we do the the necessary disclaimer neither of us are

doctors. We're just talking about

anecdotal situations where things have been prescribed

specifically for Jeff and his where he's at.

As a matter of Brain. Chemistry is a matter of

experience in life and all of us men have our different

chemistries and experiences in life.

Yeah. And this is where the

professionals can come in. It's one thing for like, we're

talking about the small group where we can many times, you

know, I we use the idea that he changed his like a yoga class.

You know, yoga class will many times keep you out of the

doctor's office, just for preventative stuff.

You know, it'll keep you even out of a physiotherapist office,

sometimes for preventive, if you get into yoga as A habit, a lot

of things in life, from your breathing, to your muscles, to

all that sort of stuff. Now, even your mentality, many

times can just sort of level off, and that's what he changed.

It is, is meant to be. Now, that being said, Michael,

if like I was not like any stretch of the imagination

prescribing here in the absolutely not well and thank

God because we all need what you said Is Right on the money.

I mean everybody is an individual.

Yes, the I take our for me prescribed by a guy who's, I

don't want to brag, but you probably one of the the best

psychiatrist in the United States.

He's head of the mood disorders clinic at UCLA.

Oh my gosh. There's a guy who want to talk

to when he cast. By the way if ever you're

talking to that guy and he wants to do someone a solid and talk

to some men out there, I bet you he would have some very, very

interesting insights in his career of things that he has

seen in the shifts in all of the things I remember, Insights

tremendous insights and he has kept me alive for the past 30

years. And what I was saying, before by

drugs that I had taken, yeah, or not, not to be.

I don't want anybody to think of themselves.

Well, I'm depressed. I need an anti-psychotic.

You may not yet. Have you met?

You might need two weeks of just just sitting in your apartment

and get well on your own. You might need an SSRI.

Yep, you might need an old-fashioned.

And he says, what is the make classification of that drug?

Oh God, I'm going blank, some of them, you know, some of them

have side effects. But yeah, I was not, I was not

making any solicitations and I know you weren't, I was just

making sure we threw it out there because it's all that's

very important. And and if you are depressed and

you been depressed for, let's say three weeks, you need to get

in and speak to somebody. Yeah, yeah.

I'm getting in and talk to somebody, who knows a lot more

than either you, or I do about how to treat a depression.

And what happened of a depression is and what kind of

personality You have and what you're expecting, what your

expectations are and you know, how deeply you are depressed.

Yes, I think that's extremely important again.

It's not a matter of taking one lever, and pulling it down.

All the way or one knob and turning it up to 11.

It's a matter of all of these different things that are that

are part of what make us who we are.

You, you know, you talked about yourself, brain, chemistry

personality, all of these different things that pieces of

the puzzle that that add up to this.

I want to I want to go back to your story though because

because okay so you're medicated you you monkey around with it a

little bit in 98 was your depression that happened a

direct result of monkeying around with those things that

were they were happening goes. Yeah it was a result Mike of

nice feeling great again and being in therapy and saying to

myself, you know I feel pretty good.

You know what why should I be taking drugs that I don't

necessarily Early need. Now this is my ideation.

Yes, isn't this isn't the truth. So I stopped taking my

medication cold turkey and Barney cold turkey.

You just stopped II. Don't remember.

But I'm pretty sure I didn't I couldn't have because I was in

therapy with this gentleman. I mentioned at UCLA and I'm

nearly certain there was no way he would have let me stop cold

turkey and he always lobbied for you know, contingencies In Ewing

the medication I said, no, let me stop it for a while.

I'm feeling great. I know I'll be great.

Well, I stopped it. And as time went on, I had some

resurfacing almost PTSD of my first impression.

Oh, wow. And and like, PTSD, where you

start remembering these bad times.

I started up again. And this time I had a more quiet

depression but just as serious. Yeah, I just just as life.

Running and I remember riding in a car and my hometown of

Syracuse, New York and riding with my best friend, he was

driving the car and I turned to him and I said, I don't think

I'm going to make it through this one.

Jeff that is hard to hear. It's I appreciate you saying it,

because I think that there's a lot of guys who might hear this

and go. Oh, okay.

When you said that. What was the response and and

and was that was that The Rock Bottom moment right there, which

ironically leads to, like you said it.

You said it out loud. It wasn't just inside, did

saying it out loud. Help in any way, start to turn

the corner of that one. Was that it was that a rock

bottom moment or it was. I don't know if there was a

moment in time where there was a lot of crying a lot.

I was in my house that I grew up in the 98.

I went back my mom said, come on home and, you know, be with me

and you'll have the house here and you'll feel comfortable.

So, I got on a plane and flew back to Syracuse, New York, and

laid on my bed, for a couple of months.

And, you know, I'm crying was helpful.

Yeah. Yeah, I'll I think so.

I think it was Yes, helpful Patty.

The body's pressure release valve, isn't it?

Jeff like if you don't cry if you don't cry, the pressure

doesn't get released and then bad things.

Will happen. Pops happened.

So the crying that's that's, that's a good thing and I would

submit the idea that maybe you were crying out.

A lot of stuff that had built up Perhaps Perhaps or I was crying

from the pain and hopelessness at the time.

Yeah. And you just tend to forget

that. The notion that This will end,

which is the truth, which is the truth.

There's going to call coming into a depression, it might last

a month or two, it may last longer, it could last a shorter

amount of time but you will and emerge from it and, and be a

stronger person. I think as a result, not not

that you need to go through a depression in order to be a

strong human being. There are people 50 times

stronger than me that have never been depressed.

So I'm not saying that's it. A, it's a generalization, I

guess. Well, I suppose it is, but it's

also life though. Like, you think about go back to

your life and stand up, you become a more effective stand up

by, going up on stage and eating it.

I think of my stepson who is a just become a personal trainer

right now, he just went in a natural bodybuilding competition

for the first time in his life. And and I mean we've watched him

over the last six months he placed first in the natural

category and it was amazing. But what is he doing when he

works out? He damages his muscles only to

come back strong Her and and and this idea of from mental health,

you know, talked about becoming a world-class stand up by eating

shit on stage for three months or going into the gym and

kicking the crap out of your body.

So you can build up stronger. Those are things that are fairly

easy for us as humans to accept the idea of eating it from a

mental health perspective. So, you can come back stronger.

Why is there a stigma attached to that?

Well, I guess I guess it's similar to maybe being in the

Army more when your kid being a camp and you tend to remember

these experiences where your left kind of on your own and,

you know, you, but your buddy, you make friends that you never

forget. Yep.

Army buddies and stuff are friends for life motto, Bo

buddies. Absolutely, absolutely.

And I can only think of the guys that, you know, storm the

beaches at Omaha and Normandy and stuff like that, and

survived. And I mean, so many of those

guys couldn't, you know, because they can, they, these are guys

that, you know, were alive in the 20s 30s and 40s and fighting

in the World War Two, and they were in during their during the

1940s. Yeah.

And that was not a time where you stepped forward and said, oh

God. I'm depressed.

Someone coming healthy. I'm depressed.

They found it to be, you know. Those guys all found it to be

emasculated. That's why so many men and I've

talked to some just won't talk about it.

They talk about their their their, their combat years

storming, the beaches or wherever they stormed because

it's just too painful and I wish that there could be a bridge

built for them because they're holding onto things, you know.

I mean, I haven't stormed the beaches of Normandy, I haven't

been in a foxhole literally. Somebody, but when my

granddaughter who is, I will tell you this straight up.

She's my favorite human being on the planet.

As much as I love. All the people that I admire is

that much as I love people, my family, my little granddaughter.

She's for, she's my best friend. She is my favorite human on the

planet, and she has been that since she was born.

And, and, and being at BC, Children's hospital with her,

not knowing if she's going to come out of it, you know, she

had a tumor, the size of my fist behind her tailbone.

I will tell you this, I would put That experience up against

some of the horrors that some of these people have seen because I

saw the kids that were staying also at Ronald McDonald house

around her. That didn't make it out.

I saw some of the situations on the oncology ward of his

world-class facility. And and I mean, I'm saying that

out right now not to not to create any emotional response in

anybody, I'm saying it plainly and logically because I know by

saying those things, I'm not bottling them up and it's a,

those gentlemen that you talk about women and For that matter

who have seen these types of things, it sounds easy to say

are not easy. I guess that's the wrong word

but it sounds relatable to say, okay, these are things that they

never want to ever dig up again. But you and I are both

Testaments to knowing that that building, that bridge of

actually digging it up a little bit and doing some work can

actually release it forever and and can Reframe it, at least

reframe it forever. And you don't have to carry

around this bag of rocks that you're carrying around and

you're a testament to that to you carried a bag of rocks for a

long time, at a couple periods of your life.

And I love that you are here today to talk about the freedom

and what it's like. And I don't want to put words in

your mouth, but but it feels pretty damn good.

Take the to take that bag of rocks off your back.

Yeah it does. And let me say something else.

Mike, I agree with that a wholeheartedly but everyone is

different. Everyone says everyone is

different chemically and neurologically people.

Synapses are hooked up differently and so some people

can go through a tremendous amount of trauma not become

depressed. Some people can go through a

little trauma or what they perceive to be a lot of trouble,

which isn't trouble, which was, which was what happened to me in

91? Yeah.

And everyone is different. You know, it's not like if you

Walk through the oncology Ward at wherever you were.

Yeah, Johns Hopkins. Let's say Children's Hospital.

Yeah, that you're going to become depressed.

It may make you more empathetic towards the world but you're not

going to necessarily get depressed because you walk

through it on college or and yet, if you had someone who was

very dear to you like your granddaughter?

Yeah. That that that that's enough to

stimulate, you know, something more massive than just, you

know, everyday feelings. Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah. And so everyone is different,

you know, I, you don't have to shake me a lot for me to feel

shitty and I think that that might be experienced by fellow

Comedians and and And the general populace, I guess is a

whole, I don't know, but everyone is different as to how

much they. They, they need to be shaken in

order to become depressed. My my only message if I can

maybe homogenize this. Is that the minute you're

feeling pain? Share that pain with somebody.

Yeah and get some help and if you're getting psychiatric help,

let the doctor do the diagnosing.

Don't say Well, I salute your home and he said, I should take

Prozac, you know, fuck it is. You know that's that's not

that's not a Panacea. Believe me.

Certainly what I say is just my own experience.

Yes. And everybody will have their

own experience. Is they go through life?

And if it's depression that hit you, my main message is speak

about Talk about it, get some help.

There's nothing emasculating about doing that either for a

woman or a man and you know, we've been talking here

primarily I guess about me because I'm a guy.

Sure. And I'm thinking you know, the

people who storm Normandy were all men and yeah, you know, or

in Afghanistan weren't all men. Yeah, there were there were

there were women as well. So this goes for both.

Both genders, I mean without a doubt.

Well and Candy talks about this all the time with her with her

team and whatnot with, he changed it because I mean

there's a whole there's a big plan that's that's a part of

this. Like she changed it and we

change it or both waiting in the wings.

The reason why candy has felt so compelled and driven with he

changed it is because she doesn't like the world, her boys

are inheriting flat-out. There's there's she got two

boys. We love them with all of our

hearts And she doesn't like the way the culture is Shifting.

The way that in many ways, men are under attack and then you

take the idea of the world help World Health Organization, seven

out of ten suicides are middle-aged men.

You look at but again it's not all about suicides is he

changing isn't necessarily a suicide prevention app.

It's not because there's other ways that when men pop we talked

about crying being a pressure valve release.

When the balloon pops, it might not be suicide.

It could be violence, it could be again, heart attack.

It's that kind of thing. And and so right, the world, the

World Health Organization calls, men's mental Wellness, or men's

mental health, a silent crisis. And so that's the tip of the

spear for her, but then the idea of and, and what we're talking

about here, again, I'm not trying to stigmatize but the

stats show us that women naturally do what you and I are

talking about. That can be so bloody difficult

for men to do women. Just do it naturally, they get

together. And again, I'm not trying to

Relies too too much, but it doesn't take very much of a

stretch to realize that. This situation that I'm saying

is common women get together, maybe there's a couple glasses

of wine. They say some outlandish things

that they don't necessarily even mean it gets rid of it and they

just kind of move on. Yeah, I don't do that.

That doesn't exempt women from from having, you know.

Anyway, no room what we've been talking about, no, because

though, women are just like men, there's a certain amount of

shaking you need to do and in order for them to become

depressed. Yeah, it may be a different

scale for different people but women are women are very

susceptible to depression. Like when I say very

susceptible, I mean women are susceptible.

Yeah, just like men are susceptible.

Yeah, it's just figuring out the buttons that get pressed to push

that that caused it but yeah no II appreciate this discussion so

much II. This is this is your

vulnerability. Jeff is I very, very, very much

appreciated 98 you get through that dark period And I mean,

we're quite a bit removed from 98 right now and, you know,

you're in a different aspect of your career, you stop doing

stand-up. You still do your close-up magic

and things like that, which which again, I just hope and

pray that somehow someway, our paths are going to cross down

the line. Where I can see that a

facilitate that live somehow someway.

Well, the problem. Problem.

Mike, is that if you do see, me do close-up, magic, you may

become depressed. I don't believe that to be true

and I cannot wait to test that, that, that, that theory see were

talking before. Mike, you were talking before

about valves to go with like a quiet.

I think it's also good as a warning signal, and let me Me

tell you what I mean by that. Yes, you are going through your

life as you do every day. And there's a rhythm to

everyone's life, may be very different for different people.

If you feel that Rhythm being interrupted by anger feelings of

violence, feelings of, I don't want to kill myself, feelings of

hopelessness, these are signals telling you, you need to reach

out. And these are signals that

you're getting from your body to tell you.

Something is wrong. Yeah.

And it needs attention. Yep.

And it doesn't need to be silenced or kept inside.

It needs to be released and treated.

Yes, it's the, what do they used to call it in the 70s on your,

when your oil light will go? It's the idiot.

Like, it's the light on the dash.

Bright red in front of you. Hey, put some oil in the car.

You fool like like Yes, these are signals that.

Yes, that's a great way. Thank you for saying that.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

How's it been since 98? Have you had any dust-ups with

your mental health? Have you been pretty much steady

on the the medication? The therapy the talking back and

forth with friends, obviously you're in a different part of

life. You know, I say this very

respectfully, you're seeing friends from the past, you're

seeing them pass on. You're seeing your in a

different part of life. Right now and it's and it's, you

know, in dealing with, with mental health stuff and seeing

that kind of stuff. How's it been in this chapter?

I'm old. I guess I'm old.

I'm 92 years old, nearly over, I felt like Jonathan Winters, icy

Jonathan numbers comes up to you and he goes, you know, I was

over term out today. I was talking to a 26 year old

kid. He said, what have you done

lately? You know.

Oh God bless Jonathan Winters. You and Dave, both love that

guy. Hey, probably our favorite of

all times. Yeah, yeah.

A favorite of all time along with prior and Carlin.

And yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, I think about your running

mates along the way like like George and all that.

I don't want to bring up painful stuff.

But I mean, you know, it is a but at the same time, I mean,

it's feels like you've dealt with this stuff along the way

when you were, you know, younger.

You've learned some of these truths truths that guys.

Guys, my age in their forties are just starting to learn right

now and and and and that's that's that's such a necessary

thing and taking wisdom from folks who have lived a few more

years than us is so important. I adore.

That how's life been for you since since then?

Have you been on the same? Regiment know?

My regimen has changed a little bit.

I'm 98 did not go away as rapidly as 91.

Yeah, 91 Seemed to kind of come to an end and then I kind of

picked up my life and went back to work.

Yeah, not went back to work. I can tell you, I was working

the whole time. I went through the depression

sure, but your mentality went back to work with it and you

weren't as distracted and I noticed one more just phone.

Again, I noticed when I was on the set of the show I was doing

called nurses, that they played ping-pong on the set all the

time. And and I noticed because I'm a

decent paying pong player. And I noticed that when it is as

I started to feel better, I start playing more and more ping

pong and eventually, the ping pong started to become fun

again, and that's when I knew I was getting better but in 98,

that depression kind of persisted, I didn't get well on,

you know, September 13. Yeah, you know, I lasted in the

last until finally, they put through a cocktail for me that

eventually worked and I became, I would say, undepressed, okay,

and that took maybe a little while I wasn't feeling depressed

endlessly but I you know, those commercials you see light now

taking your medication but still feeling a little depressed.

I'm sure you seen those commercials that's kind of how I

was. I was taking my medicine and I

felt okay and I could function and I can go out and do anything

I wanted but I didn't feel 100%. Yeah, well this fellow I see at

UCLA. Eventually change the cocktail

and things got, got to be okay, and I've had a few little

dust-ups but they've been just very, very minor.

And I've been depression free since I, you know, clinically

depressed not not since 98, But that is that is a that provides

hope right there and perspective again you know to use that

phrase that gets used a lot but it it's get used a lot because

it's real everything is temporary and you know your

situation is a testament to that.

I appreciate the fact that you are so willing to talk about

this with with guys out there as we kind of move to the closure,

Jeff, the gratitude that I have for you to do this and to feel

Way compelled to share your story here with our audience and

to, and to just thank you so much for this.

I really appreciate it. Are there any kind of closing

words or or sediments you have might have four guys who are out

there? I mean, I don't want to be a

broken record. I know talk to people and things

like that. We we've hit that pretty hard.

Are there any any any parting words that you wanted to make

sure that you got into this show here before we close her up?

Well, let me say this, there is an almost every case I can think

of that, I know of people who ended their lives intentionally,

there was really little or no reason for them to do it.

When it's analyzed as you step back from it, in their minds,

they were doing exactly what they felt.

They had to do. Yeah, but there was no reason,

Robin had to go when he did, I don't know what kind of help he

was getting or what kind of All the pressures he was under but

it's always manageable there's always a step you can take

forward there is I said before the realization that these kinds

of things do not last forever. Yeah and the hopelessness is a

lie coming back, it's part of the disease itself.

The disease of depression is hopelessness and that's that's

that's the disease talking to you.

That's the voice of the disease inside of you.

That is that That doesn't necessarily mean things are

hopeless. That's the effects of

depression, speaking, right in your ear, and and you must

realize it will end, there's a future and happy times to come,

and I can assure that of all people, as long as you're able

to get out and get some help some camaraderie, and perhaps a

medication I'm closing it. That's thank you.

Thank you. Jeff, I'll go here, and then

we'll say our goodbyes privately, but Jeff Altman is is

a world-class entertainment. But I was also taken experience

in life and turned it into world-class wisdom.

And and I mean, I'm not gonna let you say anything over that

because you guys all you, none of you guys can take your

compliment very well. It just for whatever reason,

every single one of you. And I when I try and and and

really, really Ain't you could deflect it.

You're so you guys are so good at your like ninjas with a

throwing star coming at you. You're so good at deflecting it.

Jeff, you funny, entertaining, to a fault of course, but also

wise and, and willing to share that wisdom, I cannot thank you

enough for coming onto he cast here and helping us, you know,

be The Little Engine That Could get this thing out there a

little bit more. Certainly your profile and your

story will help with that. But also, I just appreciate Our

second or third phone. Call you assured me?

Hey Mike, you know what? We're friends now.

We can we can just talk as friends and and I can't tell you

how much that means to me personally that I can call you

up and we can talk about this stuff but the fact that you

would do it publicly and I mean you know what, even if it's just

the dozens of us that see it now he's a little hyperbola SLI but

I can't. Thank you enough for being so

open publicly about this stuff. Jeff it means the world to me.

Thank you my friend. Let me just can I just say one

more thing quickly besides me. Things you want?

Absolutely. I just want to say one thing

quickly. Yes sir.

Goodbye. There you have it, ladies and

gentlemen. That is that's another episode

of. He cast the official podcast of

he changed it, download, subscribe, share, do all of

that, lovely stuff. His name is Jeff Altman.

My name is Mike Chisholm that is another of episode of he changed

it, the official podcast of he changed it.

Go change something.