Dr. Lloyd Humphreys on Men’s Mental Health, Digital Health, and Practical Support

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Welcome to. He cast the official podcast of

he changed it as always I am Mike Chisholm as always I am so

excited to be doing this podcast you know.

It's a dream of mine to be a broadcaster always has been.

It was unrealised for a long time and now Suddenly in my 40s,

my wife comes along and says, I'm gonna go and try and change

the world. Me and a team of people are

going to go and try and help solve the problem when it comes

to men's mental wellness, and we've got a big old plan and she

changed, it is in the waiting in the wings and all these things

are happening. And I said, how can I help?

And she goes, well, you can host the podcast if you wanted.

And it was like, oh my God, a dream come true.

And it truly truly is. I adore this part of my That is

just emerging and flowering and and growing what an honor to be

part of it even more. So the fact that it's part of

something that is trying to change the world, I love that

now, we are still in our infancy.

So, I've got to, I've got to say the same line that I say, every

episode we're still at that point.

If you haven't downloaded the, he changed it up yet.

What the heck? Are you waiting for whatever

your persuasion? He at the Apple, be at the

Android. We're not a nomination will go

ahead. Add download the app it is in

its beta form, but even in its beta form.

We're watching guys be helped and it's so much fun to see that

there are some, some guys who have have reached out to us

with, with stories of heartbreaking.

Beauty about how they talk about where they were and how where

they are now and how they got there.

And how he changed, it was a part of that process and we're

so grateful, you know? I got Wayne.

Behind me there, you know, he's very famous.

Quote, don't go where the puck is go, where the puck is going,

and he changed it as where the puck is going.

Thank you for everybody who has been an early adopter so far,

you ain't seen nothing yet. I mean, this is just a offering

as to what's going to happen. So come be an alpha consumer.

Come be part of what he changed. It is going to do with the

podcast. Now, if you like this podcast,

hell, even if you don't like this podcast, please like,

share, subscribe. And the faster we get a critical

mass. Mass of people doing that, the

faster I will not have to waste valuable podcast.

I'm asking you to do that. Now, that business is out of the

way. I am really excited about

today's guest. Now, a few weeks ago, we had

somebody who is very dear to our hearts.

We met him at BC Children's Hospital, when our granddaughter

went through. What she went through.

Thank goodness. She's on the other side of it.

This beautiful beautiful Brit named TJ hodgkinson, we had him

on the podcast a few weeks ago as he has come.

From BC Children's hospital with a happy ending as well, that day

that we had the podcast as soon as t.j. and I finished our

beautiful conversation. Someone came running down into

the studio and they said, holy cow.

He changed just got mentioned on the BBC breakfast breakfast

show. And we're like, what?

What happened? And we went on and listened to

this segment. That It had to do with health in

Britain and and and, and there was somebody on there,

representing a company called Orca, which sifts through all of

the health apps and digital Health in the digital space.

And we somehow somehow got to be part of this conversation and

this amazing very, very silvertongue gifted clearly

intelligent guest on this show was singing.

As if he changed it, and we couldn't believe it.

His name is dr. Lloyd Humphreys.

He's here right now. He's a psychologist, but not

just a psychologist, not that any psychologist is just a

psychologist. It's a noble noble profession,

but he has taken that profession and evolved it, put it in

steroids, put steroids into it. I should say, and, and evolved

it into the digital space and he is taking an old tradition and

profession and has leveraged that when you Compare it to the

needs of people out there and said, we need to take this and

we need to advance it. We need to move into the digital

space and has done that in many, many, many ways, leading to

where he is right now. With Orca.

We're going to talk to him about that.

He's a brilliant successful guy that we are so grateful to have

been introduced by accident to and he has taken time out of his

extremely busy schedule, running Oregon doing the things that he

does Lloyd. Freeze dr.

Lloyd Humphreys. Thank you so much for taking

time out of your day to be part of he cast today.

It's an absolute pleasure and it's probably the best intro

I've ever had. So I'm going to have the bottle

that and give that to everybody. So, it's a total pleasure being

here today, 100% true, 100% true.

And the viewers listeners to this are going to see the

Brilliance. I don't normally take in

meetings when it comes to. He changed it stuff and I host

the podcast, I love it. I do my Lane, I stay in it and

But when Candice and and and some of her team had the meeting

with Lloyd, I wanted to be a part of that.

And in that meeting I didn't say anything.

I just listened and I'm so excited by that.

So all the words that I just said about you, Lloyd are 100%

true. I'm a massive admirer of you and

I appreciate you very, very much before we get into how you

discovered, he changed it in the accolades that you gave to us.

Beautiful generous accolades that you gave to us that day, on

on the CeCe, let's go into your history a little bit.

So you are a psychologist by trade.

Absolutely. So I'll try and get it's been a

bit of a strange old Journey if you like so.

And I started my career way back.

When I'm going to show my age many times through this.

I kind of started in research researching the effectiveness of

different types of therapy, including cognitive behavioral

therapy for both trauma and schizophrenia as separately

because I was always Those kind of fascinated by really how we

can help the most people in the best possible way.

And so being part of that research brought me into that

space and then then I did my clinical training and I again

wanted to help the most underserved kind of populations

that there were. So I actually kind of took that,

that, that sort of interest in post-traumatic stress and work

with refugees and asylum-seekers, non-english,

non-english speakers, torture survivors often having fled Kind

of countries and I can set up one of the UK's first.

Refugees and Asylum. Seeker a Services up in Salford

and that was hugely kind of rewarding.

But what I realized is that people waiting several years to

see me because we didn't have the resources available.

The National Health Service, whilst it's unbelievable and one

of the best health services in the world, it's still kind of

underfunded and under resource and fortunately so I can't let

the NHS and thought that there had to be a better way of doing

it. So I set up my own company where

With another psychologist and took that scale.

And then I realize that actually the number of people I could

help was directly related to the number of people I could employ

and whilst that's kind of laudable in the fact that, you

know, we can kind of pass on those skills Etc.

To as many people as possible. Technology was really coming to

the Forefront and this is where I'm going to show my age.

This is around the time before the first iPhone was being

launched. And so we turned to technology

the and Myself and others co-created.

The the world's first online treatment program for addictions

called breaking free online. Wow.

And it was just a really wonderful kind of way to be a

part of kind of delivering therapy in the the new

technology world and that can I ask you to pause for one second?

How can I? Okay so I just I just got to ask

a question about that and then I want to hit unpause so you

continue on your story. The question I have is when you

created Breaking Free, Was there red tape that you had to cut

through from people who just thought the old way?

They did not like the idea of maybe circumventing certain

processes that were traditional when it came to helping people

like was there was a did you meet resistance when you created

that new way of helping folks who are dealing with addiction?

Well that pass? Way had been created previously,

so we weren't will first to market in terms of dealing with

that particular cohort of difficulties.

But but up until that point there were, there were some

computerized treatments. There were coming through really

early, what ones where you put a floppy disk into a computer Etc.

You know and actually being able to do that in that way.

And some of those have really good evidence for their

effectiveness randomized, control trials.

You know hearing National Institute for clinical

Excellence, kind of approval, you know.

So the path of Been paid, but it was still very early days.

Okay, so we had some proof points and then the way that we

created it was with and the reason we came to this idea as

we were creating this kind of therapeutic technique and we

created an 800 page manual and we just thought well actually

we're going to be doing training for for kind of Staffing this

however psychologists or key workers Etc and we can't have

this 800 page manual. Why can't we computerised that

800 pages? And we just thought, well

actually that's me. More efficient, we can reach

more people, we can kind of and so so basically we took that and

said, right, how do we then put that into an environment which

is accessible to all? And so we took those

evidence-based approaches and translated those so.

So existing therapeutic approaches and and it was really

quite interesting, because I remember talking one time with

the vat man here, because we wanted to zero rate the, the tax

on it, the VA T value, added tax here in the UK.

Yeah. And and and one of the reasons,

the questions we had was, Will therapists there.

Zero rated they don't have to pay the 80.

And so we had the vat, man, come to us and sit down and say,

well, this is software software's battable and we said,

well, no, you know, this is therapy.

Yeah, they said well, no, it's not.

Let's do yourself therapy, but therapy, nonetheless.

And so we had a big long conversation and we had to

convince them that this was kind of therapy rather than just

translating that man. Unusual into a book.

And so one of the key determinants of success in

therapy is your therapeutic relationship.

Your Therapeutic Alliance regardless of, kind of,

regardless of of the modality, Weber CBT mindfulness, or

whatever, your relationship with your therapist is the biggest.

And so, we argued with the vat man that actually these days,

you have a better relationship with one of these than you do

with your therapist and I Illustrated it.

I said I said if you missed your appointment your therapist how

would you feel? And he said well I feel Really

upset. And I said what was?

If you walk out the door and you leave that at home and he goes

well I'd feel bereft and so it's like that is your relationship.

Yep. And so and it was that sort of

conversation that allowed us to kind of say well actually no

this is a therapeutic. Kind of modality, you have a

better relationship this unfortunately and you know not

to my liking these days. You sometimes have a better

relationship with one of these and you do with with a person

and that that's wrong. And we need to kind of correct

that. But unfortunately, It's a sad

state of the world. Well it's a tool and I'm very

glad that we kind of went on this little aside here because

and I'm going to get the, you know, the entire he changed it

team to make sure and of course they listen to this and watch

all of these episodes multiple times.

Right guys. I'm gonna get the religion of

this because this is the whole reason why why he changed it

exists is because exactly what you're talking about.

The idea that I mean, don't get me wrong.

I also I'm a relationship guy. I love relationship.

It's It's one of my very favorite things.

Now, I also realize that that's also part of my personality

trait that's just part of who, what makes me who I am.

But at the end of the day, you know, as much as I might like my

yoga teacher the discipline of doing yoga.

He, if I did it at home without a teacher, a teacher on the

screen, guess what? I'm probably going to make less

visits to the hospital for heart, related issues or

cardiovascular stuff or muscle things, or whatever, whether I'm

doing the yoga at home or whether I'm doing the yoga.

In a studio where I have this personal connection, enhanced

connection with the yoga instructor and I think that I

think that translates to exactly what you're talking about to

these little digital devices. You know there's a tremendous

amount of things that we can do for ourselves when it comes to

our mental health. That is kind of that

do-it-yourself sort of a thing. And it has all of the same

benefits. It sounds like you have, you

know, taking your machete and made a trail through the jungle

for us, coming along with what it Is that you were arguing or

what you were going through at that point?

Well, I think I think the the the really key thing here is

that that I realized that as a therapist we get to see a client

for 45 minutes a week at best. What about all that space in

between that is dead space? You know, and this is where

technology really allows you to fill that space and in the

always-on environment therapy, typically is on or off your I've

ever sat in front of the chair or you're not And that for

technology has the ability to match, you know, our day-to-day

life life and our existence are always on allies in that way.

And to then deliver help in that environment there when you need

it. And so it's technology has such

an important role to play. It's not the Panacea, it's not

the be all and end all but it has such an important role.

It's a clear if it is absolutely.

And we have to meet people where they are.

Yes! We can't make them come to us.

We I've to meet people where they are in whatever world.

They're occupying, my God. Like, like, I see, you're right

now. You could be part of a, he

changed it meeting right now because that's exactly what

they're trying to figure out as a roadmap this thing.

Okay. How can we put things into the

app to meet guys where they are to meet these creatures?

That many times bottle things, up push, things down.

Don't, you know, aren't necessarily the most vulnerable,

like, vulnerability, isn't the Position with many Bend, how can

we meet them where they are? And then extend a hand to lead

them to where they want to be, or need to be.

And how can we use technology to do that?

These are the types of meetings that that they're having all the

time to figure things out. I love that you are a Pioneer in

this. Think it's safe to say.

I mean you I understand self-deprecation you are you

seem to be the king of it at the end of the day, do you realize

that you were A really ahead of your time and a Pioneer in this

area. Well then about Pioneer, I knew

that we were ahead of our time because what we have to do is we

had to wait often for the technology to catch us up.

So one of these things is when the first iPhone came out Maps,

didn't run in the background, you have to have it right there

on the screen for it to work nowadays, Maps, work, and every

app works in the background that that just wasn't the case, you

know, up, even up until a few years ago.

And so we wanted the This technology to part of this was

to warn people when they might go past a risky place, that

might be, you know, you know, pass the bookmakers or pasta bar

Pub or gas, there their ex-girlfriends and we wanted

them to put in all of their risky places.

I've been one of the, the, the device to a warn them and then

automatically do an action, call a friend or take them on a

different route and none of that was possible until the the kind

of Technology caught up with us as soon as it did.

We plugged it in And we were, we were able to go.

So, so yeah. Did I realize?

We were early. Absolutely.

And it was frustrating to kind of, have to wait and, you know,

come on Apple, hurry up and do this for us because we've got

these great ideas, you need to make them happen.

So so absolutely. It was, it was, it was great.

Kind of in that space being able to just think without the

constraints of kind of technology and saying, what

happens when this is, this is possible.

Yeah, what a great place to be. You know, my life's motto is

Don't focus on the is, don't focus on the problem, focus on

the solution. And and and it seems to me that

that has been, you know, a driving force for you and for

your team of people for a long time.

Now, let's fast forward a little bit here to Orca because you

have taken the idea that you've just talked about here.

And really expanded upon that idea with what Orchid does

because as this technology has shown up like I think about

Twitter for example, and At the very beginning of Twitter, I

would look at say my favorite, I'm a big music guy.

So, I would look at say it's say it's Trent.

Reznor of Nine Inch Nails or something like that.

And he's got a Twitter account and suddenly I have this, the

the ways of the barriers of communication, even if it's just

one way with some of my favorite entities are people or whatever

out there have suddenly been removed and it's great.

And it's like, oh my God, I can hear what Trent is doing now in

these in the studio. What he had for breakfast, if he

chooses whatever, and this is great and at the beginning of it

it's like okay this is awesome and I think the App Store was

very much like that as well. Now you fast forward a few years

and to say the least and I'm not trying to offend anybody here

when I say this. But at the very least you got to

take the good with the bat and sometimes there's a lot of bad

to sift through when you're when you're going into a digital

space. Like Twitter, great idea.

Just like the Store great idea. But now we've got hundreds of

thousands of apps out there. Literally, I'm not even being

hyperbolas when I say that and and this is where Orca has found

a place. Am I painting the correct

picture here? Absolutely!

I'll fill in some of the color we do in terms of the number of

apps around. So, so we estimate that about

365,000 digital Health apps on the market right now.

General Health apps. Oh yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Did you talk Health apps?

Wow. In health and so at 365,000,

there's about 250 new ones every single day.

So we you know so it's huge and there's some going off market in

terms of zombies that kind of you know get get put it right

out there as bit about 250 new ones every single day.

So also be talking it's probably around about ten apps that have

come onto the market somewhere in the world.

Holy and to give you an idea of that if we think about the

strange 160 Five thousand. Let's kind of think about

prescription medications. Not not it's a good analogy if

you let me follow it through, you know 20,000 prescription

drugs on the market. And so, and yet, with

prescription medications, you have huge amounts of Regulation.

You have huge amounts of approval processes, something

goes wrong, we know about it instantly, you know which ones

to prescribe when to prescribe equally when not to prescribe

but digital Health apps. And when we think about digital

Therapeutics as well, or Diagnostics your mole, tracking

app that is supposed to kind of check whether you have a skin

lesion or whether it's actually just a normal mole or other.

Her urine analysis, which tells you whether you've got a urinary

tract infection UTI. So we've got these devices that

are doing incredible, kind of things right now.

But out of that 365,000, from our research in Orca stands, for

the organization, for the review and care and health app.

So, it does to stand for something.

We found out of out of the apps that we have kind of assess only

about 20% of Technologies on the market reach any sort of

Baseline criteria for quality. which means 80% of those numbers

that are on the market right now, our best ineffective, and

at worst dangerous and yet there's no regulation And so

whilst devices aren't great, how do we know which ones are the

good quality ones versus the not?

So good, quality ones. And I'll give you a real good

example of this, because we do a lot of research in this area,

and it's in women's health, we've seen lots of kind of

things. The news recently about Femme

Tech and data privacy. And so, we just did a piece of

research looking at period tracking apps.

And we found 24 out of the 25 top apps were selling data for

marketing purposes. And so and that's just the tip

of the iceberg in terms of some of them and not all kids

website, that reports there it's been published kind of globally,

I think today it was published in French, you know, Etc.

And it just tells you that, you know, whilst in these are, you

know, really kind of very significant, very well-funded,

kind of Technologies and people have no idea and obviously, you

know, this kind of brings it into stark contrast when you

think about Wade versus Row in the US, Um in terms of that in

terms of how that data can be used and abused.

And so it's really important that we have some of the

Frameworks to determine what is a good quality app and how is it

being used in various different ways and that's why Walker

exists really to help people find assess and use great

quality digital health. I am blown away by by what you

just said for a variety of reasons. 80% that 80% number of

blows me away, 80% of the health apps 300,000 plus Health apps

that are out there, 80% of them are ineffectual at best and

damaging at worst. That is a crazy crazy stat.

So again, thank you for being that sifter or that filter, you

know, you're obviously providing the world a service, you know.

And next I got to speak to the data thing because you know,

when Candice and her team sir, Building he changed it.

The whole idea was of course anonymity.

You know you got a guy who's just been cheated on loses, his

job did something bad might be overdosing.

Or I mean and I mean I don't want to go that extreme with

this because you know obviously in some of those situations go

to a hospital, you know but at the end of the day guys who are

living the quiet lives of desperation to take a step out

to be vulnerable and then to potentially have that

combination Back and bite him in the ass.

That was a huge, huge, huge thing, and I'll be perfectly

Frank. One of the reasons that I think

that that and I don't know anything.

I'm just, you know, I'm just gonna Hostess podcast.

But from a, from an opinion, one of the things that I reasons

why, I think that we're having a hard time, not a hard time, but

it's a longer Road getting funded is because the

low-hanging fruit in the digital world is retrieving and

utilizing and leveraging people's personal.

Data, which is the exact opposite of what we want to do

with this thing, we want to provide Tools in a way where we

don't do that and I think that that is the new privacy isn't is

on a digital scale. So what you're talking about

here is I think extremely important and most of us when we

download an app, we don't even that doesn't even hit our radar.

We have no idea, the profile they're building on us, and

then, Then selling it too many times just whoever is a bitter.

I think that's a really important thing when you talk

about this stuff and I'm really glad that you guys track this

kind of stuff, it's really important.

So those are the two responses to what you just said.

I mean I think it's going to be. The next Battleground is privacy

is digital privacy is a Battleground that that is is

it's a war that we got to take very seriously because we'll get

swept away if we don't. It seriously.

Absolutely. And I think it's about having

the transparency around that because sometimes, you know,

I'll sign up for something, I don't mind them using some of my

data for certain purposes. Yeah.

You know and and but it's about knowing what data I'm giving for

why and for what purposes and how that might come back and

bite me and and privacy by design that you know, these are

just fundamental kind of principles that we need to to

have built-in. Yeah.

But transparency as As well. And it's really important.

This is when we assess a technology we kind of look for

the intended purpose because not all technologies that apps are

created equally. You know, on one hand you've got

a diagnostic as I said the mole tracking app or diagnostic, a

triage tool. That tells you what treatment

you can have all the way down to perhaps an information or

signposting, and you've got digital Therapeutics in between,

you've got come workflow or information, you know, you've

got all manner of different types.

So we kind of Is the bait based on what we call?

Nice ESF framework. So basically four levels and

therefore, you can assess that in terms of well, actually, if

I've got sensitive medical information, the Privacy has to

ratchet right up. Whereas he has just an

information where someone's looking for information than the

Privacy is going to be less because you're giving less

sensitive data or way. So sure, it's really important

that we have a proportional response when we when we assess

Technologies and when we look at them, Because the risks are very

different. Depending on the intended,

purpose, behind the, I appreciate where you're coming

from on this, you are nothing short of an expert on this.

And I want to talk about orca and what it's the impact that

it's made. When did orca start?

So, six years ago. So with the founders is actual

pain and Tim Andrews. So I was brought in just over a

year ago now to help work with the founders, the scale of the

company as you kind of heard from my history.

Having a been around the block, a couple of times having scaled

different Technologies. They wanted me to kind of help

help lead the charge with with them.

And it's been an honor, a privilege to do so, but it's

been around for six years. It powered the first NHS

National Health Service here in the UK apps library and that's

where it started and started to design these kind of digital

Health Frameworks and we're on version 6 right now. 6.1 and Um,

there, we've grown across 12 different countries.

So we work with governments hospitals, Health Systems to

help them Define. What?

What good looks like for them. I'm going to ask you this as a

man. Now, you can take off a

psychology, you know, all the markers and things like, I'm

going to ask you as a man. How good did it feel it?

Does it feel to be at a place where a company would would

bring you in? Because of who you are, and what

you've done? How good does it feel?

When a company kind of TAPS you on the shoulder?

And says, hey we need help scaling to go from one place to

the next level. We want to vastly improve.

We want to make it take a couple steps forward.

We believe you're someone that can help us do that.

How good does it feel to be that guy?

So it's as I said it's a great honor and a privilege to be a

part of someone's journey and you know, to help bring

someone's Vision to life. It's wonderful to be part of

that Journey, you said, take off the therapists have but I always

We thought that it was a privilege to be joining,

someone's Journey back to bed of mental health and it's no

different in terms of here, it's just wonderful to see people's

Visions come to life, particularly when it can have

such a positive impact on the world.

So it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that, you know, good

quite up quite honestly, it's great.

Yeah. Well being part of people's

Journeys, I think is, is the essence of what he changed?

It is, you know, I mean, obviously we want to have,

Tools. You know we've already got the

course from the Canadian Mental, Health Association in there and

hopefully that's the first of many courses.

It's all example, the app, our app is all examples right now.

It really at the end of the day, I mean it's an app that my wife

and her team have built literally, you know, there's

been no investment. It's been, it's a ground.

Swell idea, is really, really what it is.

But when you look at some of these tools that are being put

into it, from different organizations in different

groups, and resources of all different sorts from physical to

emotional, All mental health stuff, all the stuff that wants

to go in there but the community I think is also going to be it's

already been and it's going to be a key component because there

is that part we talk about vulnerability all the time.

And actually I'm going to ask you this because you have a

professional opinion on this. I have I would submit to you.

That vulnerability is a is a silver bullet.

It's been probably out of the hundred and some odd episodes.

We've done 115. Now, maybe vulnerability has

come up so many times. No matter if it's a, if it's a

An athletic coach versus a life coach versus a therapist versus

vulnerability has always come up especially for men, how it can

be a silver. Bullet leading to feeling

better, and living better. And I think you would agree on

that vulnerabilities is a huge key, right?

Absolutely. I mean, I could not agree more

in terms of vulnerability. I think we have to kind of

acknowledge that, you know, you know, I for my professional.

I can answer that from a psychological.

Cool perspective from a professional or a personal being

a survivor of domestic violence, myself, and having gone through

that, and having to be very vulnerable, having the stigma

associated with, with admitting that or having the stigma or or

the ability to overcome incredibly kind of difficult

situations. So so I think as a man we have

to kind of open ourselves to that vulnerability.

We have to acknowledge that actually, sometimes we need

help. Sometimes there's all manners of

ways. We can gain that help whether

it's through technology, or whether it's through our

relationships, a combination of both.

Whether it's self-discovery. I think there's any number of

ways to do that. But the first step is to admit

that we're fallible. Yes, absolutely critical well.

And I appreciate you saying that.

Now, here's the thing that I would submit to you and I gotta,

I gotta, I want to test this. It's like it's like a theory

that I've been thrown around for a while and Throwing speed

against the wall. You're the guy that can actually

tell me if it's going to stick or not, you know, it

professionally and, and, and personally, for that matter.

So, so when you talk about being part of someone's journey and

how much of an honor it is, and how you get the warm and fuzzies

for that, the idea of helping a guy who's going through

something and helping him. He doesn't know what not moment

that he's going to get to the other side.

You know? There's all sorts of ways that

we described it, the quiet life Aspiration or the Epic event.

That's happened to him suddenly and he doesn't know how he's

going to get through it and when somebody kind of takes his hand

links his arm, whatever the analogy and helps walk him

through that those warm and fuzzies happen for the person

who helped him as well as the guy who is now in a better spot.

So, here's what, here's what I want to submit The Stereotype or

the stigma, which he changed. It is doing, its very best to

obliterate and change in the entire world.

The stigma is that men are not vulnerable creatures by default.

And I oppose that idea, and this is what I want to throw at you.

I think men are vulnerable all the time, especially when we're

coming from a position of strength.

The example, I use, if I walk outside my house and I see a guy

whitewashing his fence, you know, Tom Sawyer to style from

back in the day. He's whitewashing his fence and

I say, say, I'm a professional white washer and I see what he's

doing. And I see two or three.

Till mistakes that he is doing it.

In fact, I see something that if he just tweaked something just a

little bit, he could do the job in half the time.

I'm naturally inclined to walk over to him and say, hey, if you

just did this, your job would be that much easier.

That's me being vulnerable, that's me, taking something that

I know personally and sharing it with some that is a natural

vulnerability. Inclination.

I think that the problem is Is is it's one more week that

that's when we bought a things out, that's when we close things

up. While we're going through

something, that's the time where we have a tough time, being

vulnerable. So if we create a space where

there are guys who are okay in certain areas, but then they

encounter guys who are not okay? In the same area you now have

this mix of I can be vulnerable from a place of I'm okay and mix

and encourage the guy who might just be a lurker You might just

look and see the example, and then internalize it, and then

make some decisions or he may be brave enough to move forward and

to actually engage with that person.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but to me, I think

being vulnerable happened, it's a more nuanced thing than we

sometimes give it credit. For I agree, in lots of ways

with that. I think often we can see.

This was so many movements and it's wonderful to see people

being being empowered to talk about different areas of

societal Norms that need changing.

And I think it's kind of really happening over the last five

years where it's okay to challenge.

The status quo, is it okay to challenge our societal norms?

And I think there's no difference here and you're right

in the sense that is when we feel weak that we kind of cloak

close ranks because the site or societal Norms, tell us that's

kind of how we should be and we should fight the natural state.

What you're talking about. So you know this is why I think

he changed. It is so fabulous in that way,

because it's challenging those societal norms and we need to do

that in so many different spheres.

And this is one that I think is really important to do.

So, as well and to go back to the point.

And, you know, in terms of you changed it using examples, to

kind of guy think that's incredibly powerful because it

normalizes in d.c. stigmatizes people's experiences.

It's to say, hey, it's okay and that's really part part of the

journey, that's the start of the journey to set.

They it's okay. This is normal.

Yeah, and that's, that's really incredibly powerful and hats off

to to what you've managed to achieve.

I mentioned kind of on the he changed it on the BBC.

I asked the team, it was Men's Health week and I wanted the

team to pull out. You know, the top-rated digital

Health apps supporting them. That means help me and he

changed it bubbled to the surface and and there was such

that what what kind of stuck out was there was so few.

Yes. So few Technologies and so you

were kind of a shining beacon in that way and to be able to do

that and to score. As highly as you did orchids,

are cut off the 65%. So anything below, 65 percent

doesn't make it onto our digital formulas and are at libraries

and and 72% is a great score and that's what he changed it got.

So it means that You've managed to overcome a huge number of

technical professional, you know, hurdles and barriers so

you know to do what you've done. Is is absolutely kind of

fabulous. I've got the goose bumps now,

and of the same Goosebumps because I'm in the same studio

right now. We're in our home studio, which

is again, as he changed it scales, all, this is going to

scale and all the things that we do are going to look.

I mean, this looks great right now with the aspirations that we

have, it's going to look so much better.

The next time you come on this show and I Presupposing that

you'll come on again, sir, the the Goosebumps that I have right

now are the exact same Goosebumps that day.

We were in the studio and they came rushing down and said, oh

my God. He changed just got mentioned on

the BBC. And as we explored what that

mentioned was, which you just summed it up.

So beautifully. The fact that we are, are, are

in many ways. We're like, indie rock, you

know. We're, we just put a track out

and, and the fact that track got noticed by the BB is As big as

the BBC and mentioned or lure played on the BBC, Hey, listen

to the new hot Indie song that's out there without us, you know,

even working in conjunction. And now the idea that we could

maybe link arms with Orca or somehow linked arms with you or

whatever, to take that score and and increase it exponentially as

we scale this thing because that's our next problem is, is

how do we, how do we scale? This thing?

You know, we had one advisor, say to Candy to canvas.

Team, you know hey guys what you're doing isn't low-hanging

fruit for a variety of reasons. You know the stigma is like you

talked about the fact that we're not trying to do data stuff that

that stuff too. But it's not a little hanging

fruit but the orchards are full and and and you don't even

understand the shot in the arm. It was when you went on and you

talked about how we bubbled to the surface, you know it wasn't

our intention to do that, but the fact that we did And that's

how we became even aware of orca.

Oh my God, the shot in the arm. So I mean I I'm certain that

there are a lot of unintended consequences, positive and

negative but positive, let's focus on that with orcas scaling

the way that it has in doing what it's been doing.

I mean, I don't think that you necessarily had the consequence

that you can give a shot in the arm of excitement and support.

And when your ass as you know, and there are people out there

who are founders or Who are you know, business owners who listen

to this thing right now and you're grinding it out.

Hey the shout-out to the Grinders who are listening to

this right now, whether you're building a construction company

or a, you know, accounting firm or whatever.

If you're out there, trying to build something or a tech

company being a Founder is a lonely road and, and, and

hearing bits of encouragement like that from outside

organizations, or groups that take.

Kind of look at you and go, hey, I see what you're doing, the

shot in the arm that that Guides for these Founders is nothing

short of. It's like a, it's like an

adrenaline shot. And that's what you gave to the

entire team that day and you did that.

So I don't know that you intended on doing that, but in

that, you did it for us. So I got to say on behalf of

everybody. Thank you for that Lloyd.

We really appreciate that. Well, then it's my pleasure and

we're a mission, LED company and I'm mission is to improve lives

through technology. It's not too kind of shine a

light On the the 80% of terrible is to help those 80% get into

the twenty percent, you know, and so address that balance and

so when you say, you know, you want to improve that score.

That's great. That's what we want to do.

It's not to say, don't use this Technologies to the technology

is like, you know, these are the ways that you can improve this

to actually really help the people that you intend to.

Because in reality almost no one sets out to create a terrible

app. You know, there are a few bad

actors but but that That's such an infinitesimally small kind of

Number. The vast majority set out to

create a technology. They've seen an unmet need and

do, you know, they don't know how to necessarily bring that to

life. It might be a health care

professional or or someone who's identified of need that doesn't

understand the technical side of it or it might be a technologist

that things as an unmet need but hasn't really tested that out in

the world in terms of professional and the magic

happens when you bring those two types of people together.

So so our Is to help Technologies bubble to the

surface to shine a light on those Technologies and to help

those other Technologies to get to where they need to be.

And that's our guiding Mission. It's not to Mark, someone's

homework. It's genuinely to improve lives

through technology. Well, and once again, I go back

to the dorm focus on the problem, focus on the solution

moniker. And and that's exactly what

you're doing. I love that before we hit the

record button, we talked a little bit about, you know, the

he I changed it. Found her my wife and her her

history and how she worked with with, with, in the charity

sectors. The nonprofit sectors.

I love, you know. And don't get me wrong,

everybody who is out there doing charity, work and nonprofit

work. You know, for the right reasons

for the right intentions, that's phenomenal, phenomenal.

Now, many times though, and the idea of social Enterprise versus

charity, you know, I love that. You also kind of think the same

way that we do when it comes to this with Candace.

She's like, okay as the he changed it inspiration

overwhelmed. Her.

It was instantaneous for her that as opposed to coming into

as a charity, which many times relies for a charity to continue

to exist, it relies on the problem existing and if their

mandate isn't to put themselves out of business, By solving the

problem there's an inherent flaw in that you know, you're a firm

believer in that same that same principle I am, I would love to

be in a world where he change, it wasn't needed, and didn't

exist. Yep, that's the world that I

want to live in quite frankly. And and again, going back to my

clinical days, I would always introduce myself to someone who

came to see me and I would say, Look, you know, my job is to do

myself out of one so let's work together.

So I'm not needed and I would follow that up because I said I

would love to be unemployed and be on the beach somewhere

because my services weren't needed anymore.

Yeah. Because what a wonderful place

that would be and but unfortunately, I am needed and I

was and, you know, he changed it is needed.

It would be fantastic if if that wasn't the case.

And so we must always kind of strive to do.

Ourselves out of a job. Yes.

And and if that's our end point than, that's the great point.

It's when it's so fulfilling and you're on this kind of cycle

that one begets, the other that you get trapped.

Yeah. And that's kind of not the place

that I want to be. Yeah.

And that's how we're looking at this as well.

Very, very exciting times that there are folks out there.

And I mean, I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to sound self

magnanimous, and seeing this, because we have Into so many

people in organizations that are doing exactly what you're

talking about. Trying to work themselves out of

a job or work themselves into a place where what they do has to

be pivoted, because it is job, well done.

That's, I love working with people like that.

And, you know, that phrase, the fisherman can always recognize

another fisherman, we recognize that in you, and with

immediately. And it's so cool to see that.

And we appreciate that, that, that kinship I got to be very

Very respectful of your time here.

And I want to utilize the fact that we're also talking to a

world-class therapist here and there are guys out there who

are, well, I do and it's okay. You be, as you want, I'll be,

I'll be your hype man Lloyd very much David to carry you around

in my pocket permanently. Don't I?

It's my, it's my pleasure and and I'll throw this out there,

too, because I can, I can do this.

I can say the politically incorrect things are the things

that might not corporately be the right thing because I'm just

the whole The podcast I can say this.

Hopefully, we partner up more and we can create opportunities

to do that. I would love, love love that.

I would love to be if he changed it, can be even Mentor or

partnered somehow with you along the way, even if it's just you

coming on the podcast, again, whatever that is.

I'm just going to throw that out to the universe right now

because we just, we just appreciate it so much.

And, again, a fisherman recognizes another fisherman.

Now, the therapist hat, There are guys out there that are

listening to this podcast, who might be dealing with something

that they're overwhelmed by. And and many times when we are

overwhelmed as men, we do bury it down, we don't talk about it.

You know, I know it's a loaded question and it's a wide open

field without a lot of parameters, but but if there's a

guy out there that's listening to this right now, what are some

of the fundamentals? Maybe that you would throw Out

there that can be kind of generalized into all sorts of

different kind of problems. I think the fundamental is odd

but you can guarantee that someone else is going through

the same thing that you are. You know, that this is this is

absolutely normal. Yeah.

And it's okay. But that doesn't mean that you

can't address, it doesn't mean that you can't ask for help but

you're not the first person to Gone through what you're

experiencing and therefore how do you find those people that

can listen all those people that have gone through similar

experiences or those people that can just be a sounding board for

you. Yeah and sometimes you might

need to experiment with who those people are.

You don't automatically the first person that you might open

up to might not necessarily be the right person, but you've

taken a first step. You know, it's an experiment.

So keep going until you find the right person for you.

Be put off by the first time you tried because you may not it may

not be the right one. Yeah.

And again, a personal experience, my son is going

through some difficult times and he went to see someone and talk

to someone. He was the wrong person first

person. He said I'm not trying that

again and we spend weeks saying right you know in explaining and

talking and he's managed to engage and find the right person

for him to talk to. So for me it's about

acknowledging that this this is okay but it's normal and

experiment and find and that person that can help you with

that or find a place where you can express yourself and where

you can express, that might be technology and if you can use

technology to express yourselves in that way, that's great.

And look for the healthy ways to express yourself.

There's lots of ways to express yourself and some of them are

better than others. So, so look for the ones that

are actually going to be the healthy ways that are going to

help you express in the best possible way that's going to

dissipate it or make it worse. Those are two beautiful keys

because I just threw that at you and I mean God again, wide open

pasture. I think I really appreciate you

saying that because those two fundamentals, you're not alone.

There is nothing new Under the Sun, no matter what you're going

through. Somebody has gone through a

version of it beforehand and there's a lot of empowerment in

knowing that we're not alone, isn't there?

Like like like I think that that's That's part of the reason

we're internalizing things as men, we think that we're alone,

we think we're the only one who have gone through, and it's

erroneous, and it's, of course, a logical.

But emotion, many times is illogical, I think that's a huge

concept. That that's a very easy fix, or

not, fixed. But, but easy, at least Lily Pad

in front of you to take the next step.

That's a huge thing knowing that we're not alone, isn't it?

It's a huge thing and I'll definitely sometimes when people

make Really catastrophic decisions.

You know, some of those those decisions that feel right at the

same time, they are born out of that being the only coping

mechanism. They have the only option

available to them. And, and there are many options,

and, and knowing that there is the potential to kind of address

this to know that many people have been through this.

That actually, as many different ways to kind of cope, there's

never just one company. There's never that kind of

catastrophic or approach to being able to kind of end your

problems. There's always other ways to

solve that and sometimes it's difficult to kind of see that

it's difficult to understand what those might be in those

moments. And that's why it's important to

find the right support in the right time in the right way

because that's when those things can again bubble to the surface.

It's so simple and the way that you deliver the message is so

Simple. And and by the way, simple for

guys, but it's not when you're in the Heat of the Moment.

It feels like somebody. It's very easy for me to say

that and takes the most amount of strength and the most amount

of courage to be able to actually reach out to kind of

try an alternative way. It is very easy for me to sit

here and say that it's very easy for it to flow.

And yet let's let's kind of not diminish the power and the

strength that it takes well, and I think that that's, that's the

distinction that I kind of was going to that you just

articulated your economy of words is incredible.

It would have taken me 20 paragraphs to say what you just

said, in eight sentences. Yeah, it's simple, but it's not

easy. And those two things are

different that like, simple and easy are not the same thing

especially when it comes to this.

But the good news for guys who are going through things, some

of the steps to drastically, improve your situation as to

where you are. They're actually fairly simple

but they're not necessarily. Easy and I think that thank you

for thank you for making that distinction.

Listen, I am very cognizant of your time.

You're extremely busy, man. I just going to throw out a

little bit of a do. Okay, first and foremost, I'm

going to say, how do people find you the social medias and and

the different ways? If you wouldn't mind plugging

all of those things for yourself at that point and then I'm going

to get us out of here with an outro so plug how to see how to

find you and anything else that you might want to say before I

go. Into the outro because we are

the time gets slippery when we do these things.

Not, no worries. It's all just got our website

polka help.com. Orca, chaa, health.com or

galco.com. You'll find us that way.

Oh, and that's all he says, what about what about other social

stuff? Are you, are you a social media

is when yeah, you'll find us on Instagram, so you've got to do

is search for all That. Oh man, you're such a good

company, man. Lloyd.

Okay. He's also appeared on many

podcasts and other things around.

If you want to see more and hear more of Lloyd, he's around.

You can, you can see him and hopefully like, okay, so here's

my vision for this. Thank you for this.

I appreciate it, so, so much. I'll take it to the outro here

and we'll go from there. Lloyd, your, you are

frustratingly, humble, sometimes.

Without you are willing to not self promote.

No, no, you are an extremely impressive.

Of guy. And I just, here's my vision was

going to throw this out there. This, this idea is that, you

know, right now, as we broadcast this, we're in August of 22.

And it's going to come out late August or early September of 22.

I hope that at some point, you know, somebody has he changed it

as a big Force out there and and they heard the fifth or sixth or

seventh podcast with with Mike and Lloyd and and and they go

all the way back. To Holy Cow.

There's the first appearance. There's the first appearance

when he changed. It was just fledgling and it's

candy. And I, we've written a book

already. That we went through, going

through the things that we went through the learning experiences

of when we were at BC Children's hospital with our granddaughter,

going through her cancer, scare, she's fine.

The next book we're talking about writing the his and her

perspectives is grateful in the grind and right now we're in the

middle of the grind right now. And it's It's and it's life is

very much in color. It's right in front of us right

now, as we're building this thing and and, and she's

building this thing. I'm just assisting.

But my vision is is that people will come back to this

conversation that we've had today and say, oh my God, Lloyd

was, it was supportive right from the beginning and we'll

have more of these conversations and can grow more of these

things moving forward. I'm going to throw that out

there. That that's, that's, that's what

I would love to see happen in the future.

I cannot thank you enough for taking.

Time out of your extremely busy schedule to being part of this.

Thank you for being a helping hand.

For he changed it Lloyd, it means the world to us dr.

Lloyd Humphreys. Our Guest today on, he cast

again, broken record. If you haven't downloaded the

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download it? And please like share.

Subscribe this podcast, whether you like us or not, we would

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My name is Mike Chisholm go change.

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