Miles Miletto on Toxic Relationships, Mental Health, and Finding Hope

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Welcome to Heat Cast, the official podcast of Heat

Changed. As always, I am Mike Chisholm.

As always, I'm excited to be here.

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where we are and to watch this thing growing and you ain't seen

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As Johnny Carson like to say, more to come.

Anyway, today's episode is a really special one.

I am, I'm I'm very excited that this gentleman has has come here

and and and said that he would share his story because it's a

crazy story. It's one that I'll tell you this

we've had a lot of husbands who have come to us behind the

scenes who have gone through things in their in their lives,

in their marriages and their relationships.

A lot of guys in their relationships have have burdened

some pretty major shit. Some things in the background

that don't come forward especially because of the

stigmas that we have in our in our in our culture about abuse

about behaviors. You know that that that that we

sometimes go through in the dynamics of relationships and

and there's been a lot of guys who have come to us flat out

abused and and and not willing to tell the story publicly but

needing help in that. We've actually got a guy here

who's willing to talk about some of the things that he went

through in a previous relationship that we're just

really grateful because of how much learning and how much has

come from that. As most of you know if you've

watched any or listened to any episodes of he cast before now

you know I'm a huge music fan massive massive massive music

fan music is like it's it's it's just there's an authenticity in

music. There is a I'll say when I'm at

the right rock concert, the right concert, whatever it might

be. It's almost like a religious

experience. I love music.

I love the language of music and we've got a local band where

we're from in the region of Canada that we're from called

Madhouse Tactics. We went and saw them not too

long ago and and and one of the players in that band, his name

is Miles Maletto. Miles and my wife actually

connected right as he cast, as the infancy of of he cast.

We, I don't even know if we were, if we're putting out

episodes at that point if we were just planning on it.

And he told her a story that knocked her socks off from a he

changed it perspective but also from a human perspective.

And I am we've been waiting for this to kind of happen for all

the the the the, the things to align to make this happen.

And Miles has finally made it into the He Cast studio and

we're really grateful for that. An amazing guy, an amazing

musician with an amazing story and he's willing to open up

about that. Miles, thank you so much for

taking time to be part of this year.

Thanks for having me. I want to set the table a little

bit scale of one to 10. Your life right now.

What would you say your life is right now in this day at the

date of this broadcast? I'm going to say it's a 10.

It's right up there. Pretty, pretty happy where I'm

at. Lots of good stuff going on.

You know what? It's so good I don't have enough

time to do it all. I wish I had more so I could

keep doing all these things. Work life is good.

Family life is good. You've got your the, the band,

which is just this project that just injects all sorts of good

things into those things and the rest of your life.

I'm not. I'm not overstating when I say

those things. No, no. 10 Out of 10 Life Right

now, life is, you know what? Not perfect?

Of course not. Of course.

You know what? There's there's lots of things

that could probably go better. It could be a lot more rich, it

could be a lot more famous, you know?

Sure. As far as I am and from my

well-being, I'm in a good spot. OK.

We're starting there and we're and we're and and believe it or

not to the the folks who are watching and listening to this,

we're going to finish there too. But there's some stuff in the

middle that we're going to talk about today.

But I think it's really important to talk about how how

satisfied and how how how life, how much you're living life in

color right now and and and how good things are.

It's great to talk about that. Now, that being said, went

through a lot of stuff to get to this place, and I don't want to

put words in your mouth, but if you didn't go through that

stuff, this place might not be. You might not be living the

vibrant, colorful life that you're living right now because

of the things that you learned along the way.

Guaranteed I wouldn't be OK. Guaranteed OK.

It's all from what I learned. OK, what you learned and you

learned We're Canadian. A metric shit ton of things

going through what you went through.

You lived a lot of life. I, I, I want to truncate a

little bit. We're going to talk about

because there's tough relationships, that there's a

lot of guys out there who are suffering in tough

relationships. You've talked to some of these

guys since going through what you've gone through.

When you found out what Candy and her team are building,

immediate attachment, what I mean and I mean I, I, I think

I'm, I'm preaching to the choir being a little bit obvious here.

But when you found out what that he changed, it was being

formulated and and and going to be unleashed to the world.

Initial reactions. What was it about?

He changed it that connected you to what we're doing here?

Yeah, honestly, it was When I met Candace, it was, I was

invited on a radio show. That was the first time I ever

told my story. And just hearing the reaction of

the people, the other guests that were on the show, and

Candace's reaction, it was like, you know what?

I need to kind of broaden my message if I can.

I mean, I was still still struggling with a lot of things

myself trying to refine it. I still struggle all the time,

but I just get better at recovering.

So yeah, I guess that was basically where it.

And the idea of a of an app or a resource for men, Needless to

say, sorely needed, I mean, I mean.

Yeah, I mean if if somebody can go there and see examples.

I mean since it's since it's available now, I you know, I'll

check it and see you know what other people are are going

through and how they recovered. Yeah, I, I, I want to get to the

story because, I mean, I don't want to bury the lead here.

You know, some of these, some of these these podcasts that we do,

you know, they kind of go all over the place.

This one here has a beginning, a middle and an end that is still

ending in in in in good ways. And it's a happy ending right

now. You married your high school

sweetheart. Needless to say is that, is

that, is that a fair statement? Yeah.

How old were you 2 when you met? So I was about 13 years old.

I'd met her before that, but we kind of were just interested in

each other at 13, not 13. It was a little young.

Where were you? What city?

What in Summerland, BC in Western Canada?

Small town, very small town with a couple you know mid sized

towns surrounding it but but small town life You meet at 13

and and you had gone through some stuff before then you know

now kind of looking back at the at the the trail of bread crumbs

that led to where you are now and knowing some of the things

that you know but you know PTSD and things things like that

you'd gone through some stuff at that point connected with her in

childhood and you guys just kind of stayed together married

before 20 right. Yeah, I was.

I was 19. I think she was 20.

I was 19. OK, so, so right around, you

know, formative years, you know, a small town.

Needless to say not a lot of resources or access or well even

incentive for for couples to be into a fine functioning

relationship high functioning relationship and and and this is

a story that many people have heard were were you 2

dysfunctional to at the beginning?

Was it was it always there? Was it just habits that had

developed? It it was there was a it was a

little dysfunctional. Yep.

There was a religion issue. I'm not from a religious family.

My my mom is the complete opposite.

And she was trying to have a spiritual life and I conflicted

with that. So that created a lot of issues.

But I was very open because it was all new to me.

So there was a little bit of chaos in in trying to do the

right thing, but, you know, being young and naive and

letting emotions take over. Yeah.

Was there a lot of? We're in love.

Love's going to conquer all. We're not too young.

We're, you know, we're going to do this.

Was there any of that or was it was it pretty smooth sailing in

the sense of doors just opening for you to say, yeah, let's get

married at this age? No, no, it was not.

It was. It was definitely a ride and it

was on and off. In fact, I think it was the same

year, same year we got married. We weren't together for four

months. OK.

So she had gone through something which kind of brought

me back into the picture to try and you know, I felt bad for her

and we kind of rekindled at that point.

But it was not a romantic thing. It was not a mature relationship

in any by any means, and getting married young was probably the

was not a good idea. Well and we hear we've heard

life coaches in in different I've talked to all sorts of

people since going on this journey with he changed it even

in my limited role here and talking about how guys many

times have that for lack of a better term that white knight

mentality that we want to save. We want to, we want to help.

Was any of that there for you when you saw she was going

through that time and and and and you just?

Wanted to, I don't think so. I was very immature, you know, I

had, I had a difficult upbringing with with my parents

that I didn't see my dad a lot. He worked quite a bit and then

they separated and I was just left with my mom and my she was

a difficult one to be raised by. So there was a familiarity in in

this new relationship but I was just not mature enough to I I

was silly you know always trying to be the funny guy.

So I I don't know. I was I think it was probably it

was just not not a a responsible way to to get into a

relationship. You were a kid.

I was a kid. You were a kid.

I was a kid for a long time after that too.

Yeah, and then, but then suddenly forced to start doing

some adulting. I had to do adulting.

I was a kid with kids. And that's and that started

early on as well and that was A and I mean that's the rock and

the hard place, right. You know we, we, we talk about

all this, these needs for education about you know

pregnancy and all that kind of stuff, you know and people turn

it into political issues and all that.

Let's just look at the human issue.

Tough choices when pregnancy shows up, when you're that age,

when you're not. Even she was ready to have kids

when we were 18, right? And I just, I tried to start a

business when I was 19. We had gotten married and two

months later moved to Prince George, you know, 8 hours away.

I didn't know anybody or anything and tried to start a

business. Becoming an entrepreneur at that

time as well, OK? Yeah.

Yeah, lot of lot of big learning curves for you at a young age.

Miles. Yeah, exactly.

And so she still, at that point wanted to have kids.

And and I I don't understand it, but it wasn't until couple years

later that I was like, OK, you know what?

I think I could do this. Wow.

Yeah. Candace, to this day talks about

your story. It's been like 2 years since

she's heard it. Let's move into it.

Let's just, you know so so you're married for a few years.

Were the problems there already? Were they there right from the

get? Go.

They were there before we got married.

There was a little bit of of difficult circumstances

regarding. Hi, I I came.

I came to visit her. This is before we were even

living together. I came to visit her.

She's in the carport and she's slamming a rock into her head

and I don't know if it was an attention thing.

When I think back, I'm like, I wonder if it was attention or or

what the deal was. But that was like, it didn't

really open my eyes. I wish I was mature enough to

say, hey, this is a red flag, right?

So that created a lot of issues, you know, as far as a mental

stability went, so. Red flags get clouded by emotion

very easily. It's so easy when you don't have

emotion involved and you're just looking at stone cold logic as

to oh this isn't good or whatever, but then emotions

cloud that shit, don't they? Yeah.

And I I guess it was. It was.

I had made this decision. So now I'm just going to move

forward. I'm just going to rule with it.

We got married. I'm going to do the best I can

to be married, committed to it. Exactly.

This, this is the bed we made. We're going to, we're, you know,

we're going to make this bed. We're going to, you know, figure

it out. We had a kid.

I'm going to be the best dad I can or try to be, but it was

difficult because there was a lot of anger on her side

towards. I did not just towards me, but

she's just anger within her. So it was it was hard to find

that happy medium to be a great, loving dad and keep her happy.

Right. Because now I'm, you know, away

from everybody and everything I know with a new.

Life. You're isolated in a new place.

Why Prince George? It was just where the

opportunity I was working for a company here in well in

Summerland and they were opening a new franchise.

OK, I got. You and they were opening it in

Prince George and I had that opportunity.

There was no buy in. Perfect size, no money.

I'm 19. Years old, I got no money.

Yeah, and a lot of responsibility already.

So. So, yeah, no, I I feel you.

OK. So one thing I want to make sure

we precurse before we start moving down this path a little

bit is is. And again, I, I, I can say this

with full authenticity behind people's backs.

You are still extremely respectful.

You're extremely respectful of all involved here.

You're, you're, you're basically, you've got a story

about this is what happened. This is how I dealt with it.

This is where I was. This is where I am now.

In no way are we trying to disrespect in any way, shape or

form anybody. I'm not putting words in your

mouth by saying that, right? No, no.

You know, there's been multiple times when I've had to tell my

story and I I don't want to ruffle any feathers any more

than they already are. But the story needs to be told,

and there's just some things you can't avoid.

Yes. But at the same time, like you

said, be respectful about it. We're not.

I'm not trying to create a war. No, I'm just trying to help

where I can. OK.

And that's and that's, that's who you are and that's what you

that's what we're doing here today.

That's what we want to do here today.

So. So let's start moving into it a

little bit. As the marriage progressed, you

know, you see, yeah, things especially with hindsight now

being able to look back and say, Oh yeah, there was a warning

sign right there. Didn't see it at the time.

And isn't that life right. But isn't it nice when we can

take a look at some of these things in life and and and

regard them, record them, regard them, and so we can avoid

potholes in the future? Speed bumps, whatever you want

to call it, giant chasms of doom.

We can avoid those things and and I think it's safe to say

you've got a whole bunch of those.

When was it that it really started to get bad in the

relationship? I guess it was then.

It was when we had moved away, we had moved away.

We had had a child and it was it was tough to be that young and

not have a lot of family and friends to help out with raising

kid. We didn't know what we were

doing. You know the Internet wasn't

readily available like it is now and it was tough.

It was tough in in trying to keep my family as balanced as it

could and still dealing with my own past from my upbringing.

It was hard. Give us an example of something

that's hard, like, is it? Is it because of confrontations

that would happen, traumatic events that would happen?

What are we talking? About so back.

So we have a We bring home a brand new baby and he won't stop

crying, right? Of course, you know, it's a

brand new baby. He won't stop crying.

Well, she's getting angry. It's making me angry.

I'm getting angry. And I'm yelling at this little

baby at 2:00 in the morning because I, you know, we can't

sleep. And this is all new and I don't

know what else to do. And I'm yelling at this baby.

So that was kind of a precursor to how the rest of the

relationship was going to go. There was a lot of anger.

There was a lot of yelling and it started to get a little bit

more physical. After that.

Any situation, any problem that came was my fault.

It didn't matter. Didn't matter if the car, if the

car breaks down, it was something I did so or you know,

yeah, a car accident. Well, it's my fault.

Blamed for everything. Blamed for everything, yeah.

That's hard. Yeah.

Was there Was there fear or trepidation to like, come home?

Like, what am I coming home to today?

Were there were there moments of bliss as well that tempered

this, or was it constant? Yeah, it was.

It was. I did not like being home.

I did not like it, but I spent. I spent a lot of time at the

arcade back then at. The arcade At the arcade, what

was your game of choice? It.

Was Street Fighter two guy. It was virtual fighter.

Virtual fighter, Virtual fighter guy, too.

Wolf Wolf was my guy. Yeah.

You played a lot. OK, so, so escape.

There was some escape. There was a lot of escape.

And and that's I I think escape is I talk about self-care all

the time. We talk about this because you

know when you're going through something it's very important.

self-care is extremely important, right.

You got to stay hydrated so you can hydrate others.

If you become a dry sponge, you can't do it anymore.

That's the analogy we we we've been using lately.

This is different. This isn't just self-care.

This was something different. This was not self-care.

This was a Band-Aid, you know, it was, it was a little bit of

relief for the moment. But then I knew I was going

home. I was going home to, you know,

not measuring up anymore, not being good enough at anything,

you know, not bringing enough money, not being a good enough

dad, not, you know, I got a lot blamed a lot for.

Isolating us, you know, away from home, right?

But at that again you just you still roll with it and you try

to make it better. So when that was happening, I

mean and I think there's a lot of guys out there who can relate

to being blamed for things and and and also whether it's

genetic. You know we talked about the

hunter gatherer the primal of what makes men, men you know

that are there hard not to take that on the chin when when we

have this many of us have this instinct that we want to take

care of and and and have all these things and and at the end

of the day let it be known to those around us that we are

enough so we can maybe think that we might be enough.

You never felt that? No, it it was it was a constant.

I'm trying to be the person she wanted me to be.

And what was that person? Was it?

Was it? Was it possible, Like at the end

of the day, looking back hindsight, was it possible for

you to be what she wanted you to be?

What? She wanted, even if I was, she

wouldn't see it, right? So she wanted me to be much more

like her dad. He was a hunter, you know, He

was an outdoorsman. I wasn't.

I was the opposite. I like my video games, you know?

And at that time I had given up music for the family.

So that was kind of out of the picture and anytime I tried

there were issues there which we can maybe talk about later.

But but yeah, I just, I I I wasn't that rugged guy that I

think she wanted. And I now that we're talking, I

I remember there was a time we actually had didn't last in

Prince George. So it was my son was about nine

months old. We moved back to Summerland.

The business didn't work out and she, I can remember sitting on

the floor and she's sitting in a chair and I was just begging her

to love me with this nine month old baby.

And she says I could never love you because I love somebody

else. And I lived with that for

another 14 years knowing that. Was that an actual there's a

person that she's like, talking about?

Or was it? Was it.

I'm sure in the heat of a moment where it's like OK, but like or

or was there a 14 year, there's somebody else there that.

Yeah, she admired a a guy who is about 8 years older than us,

kind of was teaching her some spiritual things and and you

know, she really admired that part of him.

He was way more mature than I was Sure.

And I'm just speculating. I don't know that it was him.

I you know. No, but the things said though

that you're talking about it X amount of years later, like

that's that's the kind of impressionable stuff that when

you know and you're begging this person to love you.

Yeah. That's that's a very vulnerable

place right there. And and again, almost primal,

you know, it's a basic human love is a basic human need.

And when you're asking to be loved and that person rebuffs or

or mocks or steps on it, yeah, that's something that would

carry with you. Yeah, and at that time, I didn't

know what that meant. I didn't know what love was

because I didn't feel it from my mom and my dad was he wasn't

around. They had separated.

I only saw him two weekends a month, and it was more of them

reprogramming me from the way I was.

You know am with my mom, right? To trying to spend time with my

dad, and I know I couldn't have been easy for him.

It had to have been difficult. As the relationship progressed,

that's reprogramming is exactly what happened to you, right?

And I mean you know you've you've worked your ass off to

unprogrammed this reprogramming that happened.

But let's go into it a little bit more as to as to some of the

things you experienced along the way.

As far as the reprogramming or as far as the why I needed to?

Yeah, why you needed to like what was what was let's.

Well, for instance, let if we stay on the topic of of this, of

who she loved. There were.

I had really grown fond of a of a of a friend of mine in Prince

George. We've gotten pretty close.

I have no siblings, but I really viewed him as a brother.

You know, for the first time I thought that I was caring for

somebody like family. Well, a time came when I found

out that they were having a private relationship.

So it wasn't physical because he was so far away.

But at that time I was working two jobs.

I think it was only two jobs at that time were day doing stucco,

and at night I was working for the newspaper.

So I was out driving and I'd have to leave about 1:00 or 1:30

in the morning and he would phone her and they'd have these

intimate conversations. And the only reason I know that

is because his wife phoned me and hysterical, hysterically

yelling at me, I'm like, I don't have anything to do this.

I don't even know what you're talking about.

I had no idea. Oh my goodness.

And that wasn't the only time that that happened, right?

About six months later, my current friend in the town we

were living in, I had come home. It was winter and I saw these

tire tracks in the driveway and I go, oh, was was he here today?

And she was, oh, yeah, he was just dropping some off.

And I'm like, OK. And I come home the next day

early, and he's in my house and they're sitting there having

tea. Well, I found out a little while

later that he had written her a letter asking her to run off

with him. So they obviously had a

relationship going on there. So this was, this was in a span

of a year. I lost my two best friends.

Oh God, that's hard. So I'm going to be the guy right

now that doesn't have any emotion.

Why'd you stay? My kids, it was the right thing

to do. You know, you don't leave you.

You do what you can. You know you entered this

marriage and you had kids. Your responsibilities too, to

stick it out. Yeah.

How many kids you have? Three.

You have three kids. What are the ages now?

2624 and 22 I think. Relationship with them?

How's that? Great.

Yeah, I don't know. I like to, I like to go back to

this part of life right now before we go back into the that,

that, that stuff. Yeah, yeah.

So I I had basically raised my boys.

They were 15 and 13 when they moved in with me, and so we get

along well. My oldest is he's living a few

couple provinces over and my daughter stayed with her mom

because she wanted to go to school where her mom was living.

She's only 10 years old at the time and there's she got taken

away from me when her mom decided to move to Edmonton.

I am. So her and I have had this kind

of on off as far as time wise. Yeah, she ended up living with

us for a couple of years, but it was very difficult.

She was going through those teenage years and not having a

lot of direction before That was really hard on the rest of us.

And so she ended up going back to her mom's, who is now living

in Victoria, right? But I still talk to her.

In fact, at our our last show, she surprised me.

She I had no idea she was coming and she just.

The one I was at. The one you were at?

Yeah, yeah, I had no idea. Are you kidding me?

Yeah, she came running over and I I hadn't seen her in a couple

of years And so we do, we have a good relationship.

Oh, that's delightful. That just made my day.

Well, just that was such a good night.

We we we we saw you know Madhouse tactics a few a couple

months ago I guess now and and it was a great night and your

dad was there and all those sorts of I didn't realize the

daughter was there as well and that's that's that's beautiful

to hear that and it's beautiful to hear that she can help

support the things that fill your tank.

You know music is clearly something that fills your tank.

You gave it up clearly. I mean looking back, looking at

the at the past giving up something like that because I

mean men can if we have an interest in some of these

things, you know if you have an interest in hockey, you don't

you don't have to go to the NHL. You can.

There are ways that you can scratch that itch and and and

and and feel fulfilled and you have energy for some of these

other things or whatever. But when you start isolating

these things that make you you and giving them up and music is

clearly something that is so close to you giving that stuff

up. You're giving a part of yourself

away and and and and and and contributing to what we have in

the society which is a bunch of guys out there who don't know

who they are. They don't know what their

purpose is things like that. And it's it's almost like a bit

of torture where you're you're in this horrible situation and

then also all these things that make you you are being picked

away and put in the closet. Yeah, because what what made me

me created conflict. So I had acquired a guitar and

wanted to play. I wanted to have friends to play

with, but every time I did it was drawing attention on me and

she didn't like that. So one time I came home from

work and there were blue splinters all over my driveway.

Oh my God. She had taken my acoustic guitar

and thrown it off the deck and then went down and got it and

brought it up and threw it down again.

There's been there was other times too when she she ruined my

equipment and kind of went down that road.

OK, so, so, so we've we've already established the the

emotional stuff a little bit here.

I mean and I'm sure we're going to get into some more of that

scarring type things. That's a scarring thing.

You take somebody's favorite anything, whatever it is and you

smash it, you do whatever, you know, with their Seminole value.

I mean, yeah, that that's going to be scarring.

But then there's also a violent act there as well and you saw,

you saw a plethora of both as the years progressed.

You talk about some of the things that you've that you went

through when it came with those things.

She used to have a a janitorial business and it was a commercial

building that we where we were working at and the alarm went

off when we went in and I didn't have the contact number to phone

to shut the alarm off, but she wanted me to do it.

I'm like, I don't have the number.

I don't have the number. You've got to give me the number

I And so she grabbed my face and dug her fingernails into my

face. You know, I was, I was in my

house for a couple of weeks because I didn't want anybody

else to know that she had done that because they're from the

the cuts. So that was 1 instance.

Don't remember your question. Well, I I appreciate you.

I appreciate you're able to say that right now.

I mean, I know and I know that there are things that you

blocked out. There are things that the kids

reminded you of. There are things that along the

way, so, so, but you're painting the picture here of of some of

the things. And it was, it was constant.

Would there be a week that went by without violence?

Was there always violence? Was it just isolated incidences

that would blow up and then result from it?

Or were you kind of constantly having to have your guard up

because it could be unpredictable?

Oh yeah, Guard was up. Guard was up.

She could I I wouldn't even be looking at her.

And she'd walk in the room and I know what was in her hand

without seeing it. Because you're listening.

You know subconsciously you're listening to what's going on

around you. And what were some of the things

that would be in her hand? Oh, it It wouldn't even matter.

It wouldn't even be a violent thing she was going to do with

it. I just knew.

You just you were always just knew what she had.

Knew where she was, what she'd been doing or trying to put

together what she was doing. While I'm watching TV or

something, you know, there came a a point going back to some of

the things that that I went through.

I had one of the kids had come home with chicken pox.

OK, She's had chicken pox. OK None of us have had chicken

pox. I never had chicken pox.

And OK, she had to go out that night and she wanted me to stay

with. I'm like, I've never had chicken

pox. I was going to stay in a hotel

because, yeah, you don't want it as.

With an adult, it can be a different deal entirely.

Yeah, so I I stayed with him and a few days later I got chicken

pox. So I did 12-13 days with chicken

pox on my own because she was gone.

And I tell you, that was a horrible experience.

So there's a lack of empathy there as well.

Lack of empathy. She had gone out to a a a

gathering of our friends and when she came home she dropped

this piece of cake down on the table and she goes, your friend

sent us home for you and she was gone.

So I was on my own for that. And this is again the is the

answer always when I say, well, why didn't you leave and and I

mean it's so funny that that you know that men get into the

situation, but there are literally 10s of thousands of

men right now who are in similar situations where they're not

standing up, where they're being treated this way and they're not

standing up for themselves. And you ask the question why you

know and and the logical, Well, because of the kids, because

I've made a promise, because I like, is that is that always

what it was? Or was there a fear of like, had

you been reduced in this place to a fear of not being able to

stand up anymore, like for yourself?

Probably probably a little bit too.

And some of it was a more of a safety thing.

She she was not going to let it go.

If I left, there was no way she was going to let that go.

She would torment me somehow. Fear of losing the kids, Fear of

being. She wasn't afraid.

No, you weren't. No.

I'm saying, yeah, yeah, you know, And then, of course, there

was a lot of time. She was trying to get me to hit

her so she'd hit me, getting me to hit her so that she could

have now have an excuse to get out.

And we've behind the scenes we've been hearing a lot of

these and and and researching and and what I wear you know

it's a measure choice cut cut one situation but but the stats

that we've been hearing about provoked.

You know that obviously with our with our system which is nowhere

near perfect. The side falls for you know

women being abused as opposed to men being abused.

They don't it's not it's not police the same.

It's not reported. It's not reported the same even

with with police. And again I'm I'm I'm using

broad strokes here because obviously there's exceptions to

everything but but there's a lot of guys out there who are being

physically abused and and if they even stand up to try and

report it the provoking thing which is a major thing like how

many times have we met somebody and they find out our buttons

and they just push our buttons and push our buttons and push

our buttons. That was a daily thing with you.

Right. Oh yeah.

Where those buttons are being pushed.

You know and again we're not we're not focusing on this but

but we got to paint the picture because there are guys were

dealing with this. What was the worst violence that

you ever had against you? She Oh, so at one point she had,

she used to play that little head game where she was going to

kill herself. She said she was going to kill

herself because she hated being with me so much.

And she said she was going to go down to the road and stand in

front of a truck, which, you know, I didn't believe her, but

I still didn't want her to go. So I grabbed her to prevent her

from leaving. Just basically bear hug.

But we had a sliding door that had a locking pin.

You would take it out from the bottom of it.

It had a sharp point on it. So this was in her hand when I

bear hugged her. So she stabbed me in the back

and four times and twice in the head with it so that, you know,

that's kind of that it would get to that point.

But there was a few things that were kind of like that.

Some of it was after she had found out that I now we're

jumping way ahead to where I had started a relationship with

somebody else behind her back. She'd found out about that and

we still tried to make it work, but she was not happy.

So now it kind of gave her a reason to be aggressive.

And, you know, at one point she's sitting in the tub and

I'm, I'm sitting on the floor talking to her.

And she just reached out, grabbed my head and slammed it

in the tub. And now I have this massive

bruise. It was there for a week.

My kids want to know what's going on.

So you make up a story and feel guilty for that.

And around that time, I guess it was actually the time she found

out about the relationship. She had gone to go find the

other girl and couldn't. She wasn't there.

So when she came back, I'm standing in the driveway with a

friend of mine who I called to tell him, you know this is going

on, I need you here because it's about to escalate.

And she ran right over me. Yeah, she hit me.

I went under the van and she had put it into a bank, so it lifted

the front end up a bit. So I was able to climb out from

the side. And when I on my trying to climb

out, she had run around and then she's trying to kick me as I'm

getting up and my friend was there to restrain her and she

started kicking him so. Did the police get involved with

that incident? No, he threatened to.

That's when she started attacking him is when he's like,

I'm going to have to phone the police and she started attacking

him. OK.

How many times throughout your relationship with the police

ever involved? 00 times.

And she never tried calling them on you like there was never OK

Because I mean, we we've dealt with, we've met with guys who,

that's the situation too. Where the provoking happens if

there's a shove or a out of defense or whatever, and then

that narrative is created as well.

Unfortunately, these are, these are these are real situations

that real guys are going through.

And I I just applaud you and I'm so grateful that you're willing

to kind of talk about this stuff here.

And again, life is 10 out of 10 now.

Life is good. Life is.

Good. But at the end of the day, I

mean these are, these are are real situations.

I'm going to ask a really hard question and I'm sorry about

this. You stayed together for the

kids. The kids saw some horrible shit.

It's a no win situation. I'm just asking you this for

guys that are in that situation right now.

Food for thought because there is no perfect answer and and

it's an impossible thing. What was the worse than your

kids saw? Did your kids see anything like

that, like that extreme? Or did was she, I don't want to

even say calculating enough, but but just was she at the point

where it's like, OK, I'm going to, I'm going to shield that

from the kids, and this is only going to happen when he's alone,

thus isolating and all that kind of a stuff.

I'm not sure what would be. Is it a combination of both?

They heard. They didn't.

I don't. I don't think they saw very

much. Yeah, most.

They would have heard it though, for sure.

I mean, she was aggressive with them.

Yeah. She would pinch them till they

bled, you know, Obviously a lot of yelling, but no, I don't.

I don't. They would see the effect, you

know, if I was cut or something, they would know that.

And they would. Yeah.

Kids are smart. Yeah.

You put two and two together. Well, yeah, you know, when I

tried to make up some story and I admitted, I told them later,

you know, years later, that what had actually happened.

So yeah, you know, when they're 9 and 10 years old, I was doing

my best to shelter them. Yeah, from what really happened.

And again, that's the no win situation too because you say,

OK, well I'm going to leave. Well that's great.

But then what if they end up 100% because you're the

protective of them too, right? Those are.

I'm not, I'm not. I'm painting a picture that that

those are the feelings that you're you were feeling at the

time or or or was it? Well, yeah, I I didn't feel that

they were safe. So if I leave and I don't take

them with me, which is going to create a whole another war, then

they're not safe and it's it's better for me to stay there.

You're going through this stuff happens chain reactions.

So, you know, one thing leads to another leads to another leads

to another. I mean, obviously you're human.

You're, you know, trying to find, you know, love or caring

in other places, that kind of thing.

Other relationships started up. I mean, you know, you're not

none of us are perfect ever. You know, was that near the end,

the turning point when it was like, hey, enough is enough,

it's time to change something. What was your I?

And I know that there's a rock bottom moment.

What was are we at the rock bottom moment or is there

anything that we need to talk about to set the table before

the rock bottom moment? I mean, I know there's so much.

There is. There's a lot, I mean, there's a

lot of little things, you know, multiple times telling me how

she hated our last name. She didn't want her last name

because she did hated the thought of being married to me.

Little, little head game. Things that they were frequent.

She had sold my dog one day when I was at work.

You know, little things that when you add them all together,

there's just, there's a huge volume of of things that you're

constantly trying to recover from.

But then she had confided in a friend of hers, you know, kind

of where our relationship was at.

And it was a relative of that friend who got wind of it, who

herself was in a a very, extremely bad relationship.

And I used to run my dog at night just 'cause I like the

dark. And she knew where I ran.

And she met me on the path one day, and I thought, this is

weird, you know? Didn't think anything of it at

the time. But she was there the next

night, too. And I was already just before

that, I talked to a friend of mine saying, look, you know

what? I can't.

If if somebody comes along, it's about 3 months before that.

I said if somebody comes along, I'm not going to be able to do

this anymore. Like like I'm going to go my

separate ways. And so he tried talking to her.

He was kind of a spiritual counselor to us and trying to

trying to solve things that way. And it happened.

It happened. And that relationship didn't

work out. But it didn't work out because

we didn't get along. It was just too complex of a

situation. Yeah, But it was the first time

in my life that I ever felt cared for.

Yeah, so I was. I was about 35 years old.

I think by then, it was the first time that I really knew

that I felt cared for. Wow.

Complex. This is all complex.

Yeah. So that's a light bulb moment in

some ways it was it was that empowerment was that was that

because I mean the strength to do what you you did and how you

did it and and some of the things that you know you you

clearly had to have some empowerment there.

I mean, was that a? You know what it it was just

something I was drawn to. I was drawn to that attention

and that that level of care. And I really wanted to have that

in my life. OK, so you knew that this

existed, now you knew that that was a possible thing.

And it's like, oh, there is, there is something different

than what I've experienced. Yeah, literally my whole life.

Yeah. And that relationship, you know,

was almost a year long. Yep.

But there was talks about, you know, getting married, you know,

living this life together. So it was a spark.

OK. It wasn't.

I don't. I don't think it was a light

bulb moment. Yeah.

But it started a chain reaction to bring the end.

OK, so let's continue down that chain reaction.

Then let's progress it and and and get to get to the, get to

the, the, the, the, the changing and thank God again 10 out of 10

now, but it doesn't happen without.

Yeah. These next.

So this is. Yeah.

So that once my ex got wind of that relationship, yes, the

hostility escalated. That's when, you know, I got run

over. Yeah.

And not just her. It was the other girl's husband

as well. You know, he showed up in my

door and threatened me. And that was a that was a tough

thing. He ended up taking moving away

with her to get her away from me because we would still meet even

after this was all found out. You know, we would we would meet

privately. But you know, trying to, trying,

I tried to make it work. I tried to make that work for a

year, but it was now. Now we are definitely not going

to live together. So with my ex, I mean, so she

ended up moving out right away. OK, actually, I think it was a

few days. I think it was a few days later.

I think we tried for a week to make it work, but I had to have

somebody there with me because she was violent, you know, she I

had fallen asleep on the floor and I woke up to her kicking me

in the stomach. And he had actually, that was

right after he had gone home. So he was there for a few days,

keeping an eye on me and. The moment he.

Leaves like it seems pretty good.

And yeah. And then so he came back.

And that was when it was kind of like.

This is a question that I think needs to be answered because

there's a lot of guys who are living in this situation where

where there are moments of lucidity or moments of

admission. Did she know that her behavior,

I don't even want to say, isn't normal, isn't appropriate?

Did she know that she was violent?

Like, did she ever admit to that along the way?

Or was it this is how it is and this is how I act, This is how I

am. There's no even discussion about

it like. I don't think there's AI, don't

think there's a conscience to that, consciousness to that.

OK, yeah. And and if there was, it was

validated, right? Especially now.

Yeah, she just. Well, especially.

She had the right to be that way, yeah.

Oh man. So, OK, where do you go from

there? You try to make it work for a

year. You wake up her kicking you.

Clearly is at some point a decision's going to be made.

What was your rock bottom in this, in this, in this thing?

Because it, you know, there's a time you ended up in the

hospital on your own by your own accord.

And thank goodness for that. Like is that right close to this

moment or is there? It was probably a 2 two months

later maybe, trying to remember the timeline, but so she had

left. She had finally left.

She took whatever money we had, which wasn't much.

We we were quite poor. Was there relief when she left,

or was it still she was lobbying things from afar?

She was lobbying. She'd still come in my house.

She'd go through my mail. You know, she'd, you know,

question about this and that and, you know, still there and

we, you know, still had the kids to deal with.

Yeah. So she was gone.

My best friend believed her. She told, told the story about

how what a horrible person I am, Right.

He believed her. Thank God there was no social

media at that point. Yeah, Can you imagine?

She, she ended up living part time with him and his wife.

And when so they were gone. This was during the recession,

so I had no work. I had one job that was going to

last me a few months. I'd have a little bit of money,

but it wasn't enough to survive. So I had lost that.

My kids are, you know, gone half the week before I got to see

them again. It was a kind of a process we

went through in in separating that we had a mediator who

decided, you know how, how the The Who would get the kids for.

So the government's involved now?

Kind of social. Assistance as well.

Yeah. So at this point, when I had no

money and and all of that, I had to go to social assistance, I

was, you know, I had an eviction.

I got evicted from my house. I went to social assistance.

They were giving me 1070 a month and my rent was 1040.

So because of that I ended up evicted.

I just couldn't afford it. But that $30, you know, while I

was trying to stay in the house for the kids, so they all have

their own bedrooms that I that was all the money I had to feed

them. So the 3 1/2 days that they were

with their mom, I just didn't eat.

And then they'd come and we'd eat junk food because it was all

like afterward. Yeah, Kraft dinner, hot dogs,

spaghetti. Yeah, whatever we could.

At one point the the power got cut off because I couldn't pay

the power bill and and I think the one time my mom ever, maybe

the second time my mom ever helped me out, she gave me

$500.00 for food and to pay my power bill.

But I was going after my ex because we had we had owed in

back taxes and the child tax benefit.

Right. Yeah.

You're not getting that if, yeah.

Goes to her. So she had a huge amount, it was

6 / 6000 dollars and I just said, look, I just need some of

it, you know, at least pay my power bill.

She said no, nothing good, nothing.

So I was in the dark. So she kept the kids because

there was no way I was going to get them.

I have to say it again, 10 out of 10 life right now because

there are guys right now who are in the shit right now.

Miles and I I'm just like, thank you for saying the stuff.

There are guys who are there right now and and and and and

I'm going to ask you this question at this point in the

story. What insights do you have for

those guys who are there? Right now, who there's hope?

There's. Hope there is solutions.

There is a lot of resources now and I think what it ultimately

comes down is courage when I was.

So I'll continue this story because it actually goes a

little bit. Perfect.

More into the hole. So at this point it's dark.

No money. Literally, literally and

figuratively. It's dark.

Yes, I had no friends. They all believed her as well.

No friends. You know, my family a little

bit, but I had no way to get to them.

My dad lived two cities over. So this is it.

You know, what's the point of living so Because the girl I

wanted to be with was gone and and had basically decided she's

going to try and make her relationship with her husband

work. So that was out and I was I I

just didn't see what the point was.

And I had a big shop that had no ceiling in it, just rafters.

And I had a long extension cord. And I went out there and I was

just through that extension cord over that rafter and I was ready

to tie that knot. And for some reason I phoned my

friend and I don't know if for sure if it was because I feared

for my kids or it was just an impulse.

But I found that friend that didn't believe me and I just

said to him, you have to come to my house right now to look after

my kids. And he did.

He hung up. The phone was about took him

about 6 minutes to get there, which was the longest 6 minutes

of my life trying to not go through with what I had pretty

much committed myself to go through.

And he was there and he goes, what's wrong?

I said I'm going to the hospital and I got in my car and drove to

the hospital and told them I'm, you know, I just tried to kill

myself and they hospitalized me for four days on suicide watch.

Now to go back to I talked about courage.

So prior to this, a friend of mine, she had known through

through a misunderstanding. She had found out how difficult

my relationship was and I had first started confiding in her,

not on a romantic level, but just as someone I could express

my feelings to. She had given me a bracelet that

she had made. It was leather and it said the

word courage on it. I always had that.

I'm like, man, this makes a lot of sense.

But eventually I had lost it. Then the girl that I was trying

to have a relationship with, she had made me a new one.

And I had that bracelet that said courage on it.

And so when I'm in the hospital and I'm lying in that bed, after

the psychiatrist comes and has a evaluation with me and the

nurses there, I'd have that bracelet.

And I could just look at it and say this is what's going to help

me get through this. And so I had it for quite a

while, and it it eventually wore out and jump way ahead to the

future, to my new relationship with my new wife.

She had a nice stainless steel one made for me and engraved the

word courage on it. Yeah, because she knows how

important that is. And it is.

I think about it all the time. For guys out there who are

dealing with this thing, and you know, we we use the word

courage, I think it's very important also to note that if

you pretend you have courage, it's the exact same thing as

actually having the courage. Because sometimes we don't think

that we actually have the ability to, we have to act like

we have it. But if we act like we have

courage, it's the same thing. And and and you do have it.

You do have it. It's it's dark right now, but

you do have it to get through. Yeah, it's hard.

It's hard in that moment to find it.

Yeah, you have to. I think you have to have

constant reminders. Yeah, yeah.

So this this bracelet I have now, I don't always wear it

because it does fall off. I lost it at a convention one

time. Oh no.

But found it. Yeah, got it back.

So. But it's so helpful when I have

it. So that's next year's tattoo

project. Oh, right on.

Yeah. It's going to become permanent.

It is. It is.

Then I'll. I'll always have it there.

I can always just just a little reminder.

Yeah. Was the hospitalization, was

that the rock bottom moment? Yeah, I think so.

I think just prior to it when I was ready to end it all, I think

that was where I was. I was done.

I do you remember when you started to get tools to help you

with this? Because I mean again along the

way you had some friends here and there you had some, you

know, potentially, you know, I don't want to say incorrect, but

ways that that weren't necessarily the best tools to

deal with things. You know, now you're starting at

this point here to actually learn some concrete things to

help you, things that if you just had as skills or tools

along the way, you know, some of the stuff could have been

avoided. And I think that's where we're

in this era of mindfulness that's showing up now.

And I mean that's what he changed.

It certainly wants to be is is, is, is, is, is a resource rich,

you know tool that guys can take all sorts of stuff from the

toolbox that can help them early on after the hospitalization.

What was one of those early tools that you got that helped

you cope or helped you start to get out of the dirt?

Yeah. So coming out of the hospital,

you know, I had AI had a psychiatrist and A and a mental

health worker. And I would assume a plethora of

diagnosis as well. Yeah, you know, the, the, the.

I went through two psychiatrists because I really wanted help,

and the first one just didn't seem to be listening, and the

second one just loved the drama of the story.

And he just right away put me on medication.

And I didn't want medication. I mean, it helped.

I mean, it helped immensely because now, for the first time

in my life, I wasn't having. I wasn't on guard.

Oh, so there's a clear head there with.

Yeah, it wasn't clear, but I wasn't on guard.

OK, fair enough. So I the nightmares were

unbelievable. You know, you I I would, I would

dream about being killed in various ways by people that had

thought I cared about. This is on medication or off

medication. This is.

Like, like leading up to why the medication was there.

I no, I think it's it was both. It was both.

It was both. Wow.

Yeah. So because of that, they had put

me on an antipsychotic to try to eliminate or reduce the amount

of of the nightmares I was having.

I was changing sheets more than twice a night.

Yeah. It was interesting because my

wife just told me yesterday that there was a long period where I

was in bed. I don't remember that after we

got married. So we've been married about

almost 10 years ago. There was a period I was just in

bed all the time and I just, I don't remember that She goes,

you were you had the freedom now to cope with your entire past

and and that's what it was. So the the psychiatrist had me

on this medication. One was an antidepressant and

the other one was antipsychotic. But I didn't like that.

And then I got referred to a program for abused men.

So here in BC, it could be Canada wide.

Women counseling is supported by the government.

Men's counseling wasn't, at least at that time.

I don't know if it is now, but that time it wasn't.

So I was referred to a counselor who worked with women and she

volunteered her time one day a week to work with men.

Wow. So I went for an intake there

and she said, just so you know, I have 29 men in my program.

I have 32 on the wait list. And I'm like, OK, you know, I

thought that, OK, here's another dead end.

I got to figure out something else.

So she did the intake and six days later I was in the program.

I got bumped to the top of the list because of how bad it was.

The severity. Yeah, yeah.

So I was in her program for nine months, which changed my life.

She was brilliant. I went in there and told her

basically how my ex would describe me and she just said

bullshit, you know, I go, how could you possibly know that?

And she goes, well, this is what I think.

And she kind of just said a few things, not really knowing my

story. And there was a surreal moment.

There were two surreal moments while I was in in her program.

One was I was, I was still going, sorting things out with

the ex. And I would tell her, OK, well,

I'm meeting the ex about this, this kind of situation.

And she goes, all right, well, this is what she's going to say.

And she listed off a bunch of things and I'm like, OK, right.

So then I'm there. I'm in the moment and she's

saying word for word what was said to me, I, which I I I have.

I don't know what it was because I wasn't.

Paying any attention matter you just in awe.

So I'm like, OK, she knows what she's talking about.

That was a very eye opening moment and that, you know, I

went in there wanting to fix myself.

I cold turkeyed the medication, which she did was not happy

about because insomnia is a side effect of getting off an

antipsychotic. Well, at least that one, I

guess, anyway. But I did it because I didn't

want a Band-Aid. I wanted to know that I was

getting better. So there was that moment, and

then the other moment was I showed up early to one of my

counseling sessions and she'd run a little long with with the

guy before me. And he walked out that door and

I saw him and I realized I wasn't alone.

That there's there is other men. Even though she threw a number

at me and and how many were waiting to be in there, it

wasn't real until until I saw somebody there.

And from that moment on I was like, I'm just going to try and

digest everything she says she would do things that were very

awkward for me, very uncomfortable.

And they're yeah, I think about them now and they're they're so

easy. close your eyes and just list 5 things that you can hear.

But I couldn't even do that. I was too embarrassed, too

ashamed. I don't know what it was, but I

was not comfortable doing that. But she would make me do it.

And then she would test me, you know, put yourself in an

uncomfortable situation. So I went to a party where I

only knew one person. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. No, yeah.

I mean, the party wasn't awesome, but it was

uncomfortable. And that was the beginning of me

trying to be around people. But those tools she gave me and

and just my my faith and her ability I use every day, every

day. And I've taught other people and

I think that's what's really helped is I've been able to help

other people. Like my wife now she went

through a difficult first relationship and then raising

her son on her own. You know there was we had four

teenagers and it was kind of like, OK, well this is what's

going on because you learned part of my program, the

counseling program was to read body language and and at that

time I wasn't very good at it. But you get better and better

and better at being able to read tone of voice and you know how

people hold themselves and and that was something I was able to

start teaching other people and that's that just started me down

a road of continuing to better myself.

I love how you want to help others.

I love that. Like like again you were

enthusiastic about wanting to come here and tell this very

difficult story about what you've gone through and it's the

most personal. So I mean apparent like you talk

about the the emotions attached to this.

I don't know if there's any other emotions that are tighter

than being a parent and and that is tightly woven with your

story. I don't know if you could be

more personal and and and the enthusiasm to talk about this to

help other guys it's like right at the top of your list of

priorities of things that that that that that you know fill you

you can just see it. It just comes from you talking

about this. Thank you very much by the way

for for talking about these things.

Thank you for being you know there is you talk about courage.

The courage in this day and age in this world to be able to to

talk about such things. Do you know you're exercising

courage right now or or or do you have a different gear

because your reality is just so healed and so shaped in so many

ways and and and I mean we don't even have time to really get

into the PTSD of things and all the the complex of situational

anxieties that you feel now and things, things like that.

There's still echoes of this, but I think the difference is,

is you've got this awareness. Yeah.

The awareness of your story and your authenticity is exemplary

right now, and I'm in awe of it. Is are you exercising courage

and doing this today or is it something different than that?

No, Yeah, yeah, definitely it. Definitely.

Yeah. You know, an hour before I got

here, I could start to feel myself getting a little anxious.

OK. OK.

Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, that's all I would think

it is. But I can't sense it in you as

you're telling the story. Yeah, but that, I guess that's

it, that that once you engage it, you're fine.

It's kind of like, well, do I need it or do I not need it?

Like if I'm in a crowd of people, that's a lot of people.

That's a lot of body language to read.

I do get overwhelmed because I'm trying to read everybody's body

language, so crowds are are pretty tough, but there was a

time when I couldn't go in an elevator if there was going to

be one other person in there. Wow.

So now just to kind of continue on with that teach.

What I was taught is I will now ask them a question or say

something to them. It's that pushing that envelope

a little bit more, having that courage to make myself better.

OK, so talk to me about the guy who's on stage, because the guy

who's on stage is like the most confident person that I could

imagine. And and and you're not just on,

you're a showman on stage. And not just that, you're also

leading the band, like you're also that guy as well, you know.

When did music come back into your life and and and was that

ordained by this group that you were in?

OK, yeah. This is something you love.

It's time to bring it back as an exercise.

Or did it something that was it something that was just

naturally added back in as you started to heal?

It was when I first went home after the hospital.

I had time. I had nothing else to do, so I

grabbed my guitar. In the dark.

Yeah, yeah. That didn't last very long.

I know I hear you, but I just. But.

But at your rock bottom moment, you know you're just out of the

hospital, the rock bottom moment, and then the guitar

comes back. The guitar.

The guitar came back and it was quite therapeutic and I really,

I wanted to challenge myself to be able to sing and play at the

same time. So I spent five or six months

working on that. And then you know, once I

started to get some of my friends back, you know, I tried

to tried to form a band with some friends and that was a long

project. They were going through their

own lives. And it was it was tough, but it

was something I really wanted to do and then joined a band.

My wife encouraged me to do it. I was ready to sell all my

stuff. I told her like, I'm getting rid

of it all and she's like, why don't you just answer an ad to

see if somebody's looking for a guitar player?

Like, OK, so I did. I was hired on the spot and from

there it kind of snowballed and another band get heard about me

and and that's how I ended up here.

The difference of having someone in your life who encourages

versus discourages cannot be measured.