Dan Byl on Marriage, Healing, and Resilience Through Hard Seasons

Transcript supplied via Spotify RSS.

Welcome to He Cast the official podcast of He Changed It As

always. I am Mike Chisholm.

As always, I'm excited to be here, much to the chagrin of the

tech people behind the camera. As I say that every time I am, I

am. I'm so excited to be here, and

I'm so excited for our guest today.

If you haven't downloaded The Heat Changed It app yet, what

the heck are you waiting for? Join the Revolution.

Is it a revolution? I don't know.

I don't know if it's a revolution or not, But join what

it is that we're doing. This movement, this idea that we

are going to change the world, that we are going to bust open

the entire arena of men's mental Wellness, men's Wellness in in

total, he changed it.com has all the info.

You can download the app from any App Store as long as it's

Google or iOS. We would love you to to be

there. Also, if you like the show,

please like, share, subscribe this podcast wherever you're

consuming it, whether it's on the Youtubes or the Spotify or

the Apples or wherever other platform that we happen to be

on, please like, share, subscribe.

We would appreciate that very, very much.

Now that being said, I said I was very excited about today's

guest. I am here's a dude who there's

there's all sorts of way Dan could actually be a guest for

probably four or five different reasons on E Cast.

You know we could go from the dad perspective.

We could go from the entrepreneur perspective, the

personal development perspective.

And then and then he's gone through a journey and that's

what we're going to focus on today.

The journey in his marriage, the journey with his family.

He is a guy who I am so excited to be talking to here.

He and I are are compatible poker players.

We enjoy being around the same poker table and the both the

same social circles that kind of a thing.

I But after hearing his personal story, one of the first things

after an appropriate time of you know, making sure we know each

other and everything to make sure that I wasn't coming across

like a freak. I'm like would you please come

on he cast and tell your story. It is a powerful one.

There's a lot of guys out there who are suffering in silence

with many of the things that Dan has not only gone through, but

done a really, really good job of creating himself tools to

deal with this stuff and to understand him stuff.

He's one of the most grounded, self aware individuals I have

ever ever met and I'm just really, really excited that he

is agreed to come here and scoop out some of the emotional things

that he has gone through for all of our benefit.

Dan Bile, thank you so much for being here and thank you so much

for coming on to Heat Cast today.

Thanks Mike. I, you know, I was, I was going

to mention I I guess I watched a bunch of these before I got here

and they were all very good and you've got the same intro and

the thing I love about that is that I actually know you're

genuinely excited to be here. Is is not a that is not just a

phrase, is not that is not lipstick.

That is, that is exactly who you are, and I love that.

I appreciate you saying that it is true.

Doing the show is is is incredible.

It's a passion Speaking of which before we before we dive into

the family stuff and I do want to focus on you and and and

Teague's relationship and where it where it started, where it

went and where it is now. I want to go there for sure.

But before that actually we were even saying it to to the crew

here, the idea that with what you're doing professionally, so

you're a contractor all in contracting poker reference.

Totally is. Oh, I.

Love it. I love.

Love the name, but you are a phenomenal contractor.

Some of the things that you have done in that world, some of the

the the the projects you've been a part of.

Gorgeous, gorgeous stuff like I mean stuff from the highest,

highest, highest and but also the most practical.

You're a super practical guy, all of these things.

You're a great contractor, but you know, you know, Gretzky

talks about, you know, don't go where the puck is, go where the

puck is going. You are taking this and you're

actually growing it into something else.

And I want to talk about that first because if there's a

contractor out there, you are actually creating a platform for

contractors to kind of teach them all the things that are

that are there. Because.

Because a lot of times people are really good at framing or a

certain part of construction. They're like, oh, I'm just going

to get into business for myself and get that cold shower of holy

cow, there's a lot of stuff there.

Have I? Have I encapsulated what it is

that you're doing in a in a in a concise way there?

What is it that you're doing to grow from just being a

contractor? Yeah.

So I mean that is pretty bang on for what it is.

It's called Top Contractor and. Where can they find top

contractor? Right now it's just on Facebook.

So it's a yeah, it's a group in in Facebook.

And the goal behind it is that a lot of contractors are really

good at what they do. But when they, like you said,

they kind of get that cold shower when they step out on

their own and they are not prepared for the business side

of business and for the demands. And so I I love to measure

everything. I I love the saying you you can

only fix what you measure. And so I measure absolutely

everything in my life and especially in my business.

And as a result, I've created a lot of systems and a lot of just

equations, math equations and stuff like that in order to make

sure that I am balancing my work and my life and the demands.

And a lot of guys will work, you know, 60-70 hours a week and

burn themselves out, destroy their relationships, lose their

marriages. You know, in contracting, it's

it's a hard world to be in. It's tough, it's competitive.

It's definitely not emotionally aware.

You know, like growing up in in in framing, you know the goal

was to go from the guy that got yelled at to the guy that did

the yelling. Oh man.

Like that's that is the that's the contractor world, you know.

And so when you become a boss, it's really easy to

unconsciously step into that and just go, go, go, go.

Why is this taking so long? Go faster, go harder, you know,

and we are the hardest on ourselves.

And so the group is really there to support guys in navigating

that process, making sure that they're pricing and they're

quoting reflects what they actually require in order to

find some balance. I felt something called the 7030

rule. As a business owner, if you're

doing really well, 70% of your time is billable, 30% of your

time is not. What happens is a lot of guys go

from a 40 hour work week, they step into a 40 hour work week on

their own and now they've got to do 30% after hours, which is

where suddenly they're like, why did I start my own company?

I'm working 65 hours a week. That's if they're being

efficient, that's if they understand, like if they're

clear on what they're doing, it might be another 30%, right,

like. That's, that's and so that's and

that's where guys will just work into the nights and they you

know and so finding that balance, actually learning what

it takes to run a business, putting systems in place

contracts, yeah, I'm very passionate about trades.

I think trades are a phenomenal way to go in life, super

practical. One thing that will never be

replaced is people who work with their hands like in a problem

solving capacity which is what trades is and and so yeah I just

want to I want to raise the bar on contracting especially in

North America. Raise the bar.

But you also have a heart for helping people and I love that

about you. Like when we were sitting around

the poker table getting to know each other over the years, you

know, it was very, very apparent that you and some of the folks

that we hang out with shout out to Jason, you know, love helping

people. When I told you, you know, I

host a men's mental Wellness podcast and oh man, like, wait,

boy, did we ever go down the rabbit hole.

At that point, you just have this heart for helping you.

Have you always had that, or is that something that you have

kind of uncovered as your journey has taken you where it

has? No, it's something that's always

been there. I kind of, I've always been the

guy that people call. That's what's going wrong.

You know, I get the call at 3:00 in the morning, You know, my

truck's stuck in the Bush. Come get me.

All right. You know, like, that's who I am

as a core of who I am. But I think as I've gotten

older, as I've developed my skills, the way I help people

stuff, it looks a little differently now.

And trying to do it a little bit more on mass.

So top contractor on Facebook if anybody's in the trades right

now go find that group, jump in there and you'll find a synergy

is the best way that I can I can I can describe it what you're

trying to create you're trying to create this amazing community

of synergy of of people of iron sharpening iron and I just I

just commend you for that. You're trying to make the

contracting world a better place now one of the things that we

talked about before the camera started rolling was I I said

look I I see you using a lot of the skills that you have built

through your personal journey and and I I'll never forget the

night when you told me your story you and Tikva's story.

You know, I don't know very many people whose marriages have been

on a on a, on a journey as encompassing as yours has.

And and I mean the reason that we're going to have you, we're

here here today is to talk, tell that story.

A lot of history with you and your wife, to say the least.

Yeah, well, we're coming up on 14 years.

Married and not together, but married.

How long together? 12:00 So we we spent two years

apart during that that window and yeah it was you know it's

it's been it's been a long road but I think we're we're finally

really working well together. We're really enjoying each other

I think for the first time in 14 years which is kind of crazy.

I I think our our honeymoon phase ended on the honeymoon.

It actually did. We got into a fight on the

honeymoon and it just, it never seemed to recover, which is,

which is kind of crazy. But yeah, we we both come from

really broken families. A caveat is, you know, 'cause I,

I may say some things that are harsh in this, in conversation

and I do believe that all of, you know, our, our parents are

doing the best that they can. And so I just, I want to put

that caveat out there. I'm not, you know, I don't want

to say something and you know. Yeah, you don't have.

AI don't want to villainize. Yeah, you don't have a bone to

pick with anybody as you talk about this stuff.

It's stuff that happened. It's just stuff that happened.

Yeah, so, so both my wife and I, we came from like abusive

households. It was it was unfortunate and

but it was it was very abusive for both of us.

Physical. Mental.

All the above. All of it physical, mental,

emotional, spiritual, both. I grew up in Christian community

being abused spiritually, which is a is a hard one to quantify,

but it it is. So is that like people putting

standards on you and then and then using leverage of eternal

ramifications, that kind of a thing?

And I mean and and in some ways really belittling things and

just being like, well you're you're dealing with this because

you don't pray enough and like different things like that.

And so this is it's, it's. It's a way of using.

Spirituality as a weapon. Yeah, you know, like growing up,

if I didn't wake up and have devotions in the morning, I

didn't get to eat before I went to school, you know, things like

that. So this is this.

Having to participate or else there's punishment was a big

part of our, well, my life. And my dad was unfortunately

quite physically abusive to everybody in the family.

And so I grew up later to be diagnosed with CPTSD, which is

complex PTSD. And kind of the idea of that is

that you so PTSD is you go through life, something

traumatic happens and suddenly your normal changes.

Right. See, PTSD is you never had a

normal to begin with. OK.

Yeah, so you you go through life always on edge, always in a

state of anxiety. Always very hyper aware of

what's going around on around you but traumatized at the same

time. So you know like is this person

going to burst into my room and hit me.

Is this person going to start yelling and screaming.

You know like always on edge always in that state of of

trauma. And so both my wife and I kind

of come from that we actually when we were dating and.

How old were you when you were dating?

24 So it's early 20s. Yeah.

So when we were dating, one of the things that actually really

brought us together was this, this bonding around trauma,

which is called trauma bonding. And it's where you, you really

relate with each other. You're like, oh, my mom did

this, my dad did this. And you're like, oh, I totally

get it. I I feel you.

And there's this, this compatibility and this empathy

that goes back and forth and this understanding for your

quirks and the different things that you do.

And there's, you know, you end up shutting down all the red

flags because you're just like, no, I understand why he's doing

this. I understand why he just flew

off the cuff because of this trauma and this, you know, and

so you you end up forming this. Really.

It's a codependent relationship from the start.

Kind of thing but. It's, it's, it's, It's based

around the fact that you are both struggling, right, Which is

not really a good place to start a relationship, right.

It's usually better to come at it from a place of health and

you know, take that on. And so we were both really

struggling and then we kind of found each other and then we

decided we would struggle together.

I think no, I think it's, I think it's good talking about

this because many times I in my life I've heard the idea of of

of, you know, people meeting in a a for for example and not

saying that I'm not, you know, vilifying anything or or or

anything. I'm just observing, you know if

you're both addicted to alcohol at this point here maybe before

getting into a relationship you don't want to chore that up and

and that's that's you know that's an example that that

we've heard in our lifetimes, it's kind of been around.

But the idea of bonding through mental health trauma of of of

some sort, I mean it's the same thing really at the end of the

day it's just a different affliction or or or a different,

you know, catalyst for that bonding.

That's very interesting. Did you guys, obviously you you

didn't know you were trauma binding at the time.

This is something that you learned through the work that

you've done. Yeah.

So that was something that we, we began to understand much

later. So the first like, so we got

married. We both had.

So short dating. Yeah, we we only were.

It was about a year from the time we started dating to when

we were married. So it was quite quick.

Again, growing up in the church, you know, you're kind of like

marriage is the goal, it's the trajectory.

That's what you do. You know, you date, you find

somebody, you get married. And at that point we're still

both quite involved with that. And so that was what was going

on. And so we we got married.

And right away, unconsciously, we stepped into the roles that

were modeled to us, not the roles that we wanted to in body.

Are these traditional? Yeah, sort in traditional, but

also reflective of what we grew up in, which was abusive.

So because we just like my, my wife's parents, the mom is kind

of the aggressor. Dad was completely checked,

checked out. He went through some horrific

things as a child and actually fell off a ladder and as an

adult and had all of it come flooding back in.

And this was right around the time that he started having

kids, my wife. And so he just completely

checked out because he couldn't deal with what was coming back

to him. And mom got super angry about

this. And so there was just this

dynamic in that relationship of just like dad doesn't show up,

doesn't do anything, Mom's super aggressive, angry all the time,

better controlling, you know, in my relationship or my parents

relationship, Dad was abusive. Mom was unfortunately coping the

best she could, but ended up addicted to prescription drugs

and antidepressants and stuff like that.

Very checked out, was actually not present for most of my

teenage years. She lived outside the house.

And so when we got married, we stepped into these roles and

combined with, you know, the church stuff.

So immediately you put all of your money into one bank account

and you, you know, do all of these different things that are

like a checklist that you're supposed to do.

The man is the leader of the house and the wife submits and

gives up everything to follow the man and like all of this

kind of stuff and, you know, in a totally healthy, perfect

world, sure, a lot of that works.

I had a ton of trauma. So I I unfortunately became

abusive. I I, I think I'd probably

actually been abusive in my previous relationships.

I I was unaware. Even in my marriage, for the

first seven years, I was unaware.

The first seven years. So kids are already like,

obviously. Yeah, So we had we had a couple

kids from that point when we separated.

So you were a dad that was in this place too?

So part of that was, you know, my my baseline for abuse was I'm

not holding you upside down by one leg and beating you with a

stick. So there's there's a lot that

comes before that that's still abuse.

So, you know, so that's, you know, like I didn't cross that

line. You know, I didn't do that to

you. So I'm not being abusive when I

yell and scream and punch a hole in the wall or throw something

across the room because I'm angry.

When I, you know, get right in your face and make you feel

small, that's that's not abuse. That's that's just anger.

That's me expressing myself, you know.

And unfortunately, that's absolutely abuse.

And I was completely unaware of it.

Partly a lot to do again with my upbringing.

Like as a kid, I went to a bunch of the leaders in my community

and I told them what my dad was doing to our family and not one

of them stepped in. Not one.

And so for me, that set this tone of where is that line?

Where's the line where somebody needs to step in?

And I didn't know where that was.

And so in my own experience, I was justifying my outrage.

My stuff. Part of the PTSD is also a bit

of dissociation that happens when you're super triggered.

And so I was unable to stay in my body and really understand

what I was doing to the people around me.

And yeah, so, so like, I just, I had no grid for it.

And. You know it's again it's not not

a not an excuse it's just what was and now you know now I now I

have an understanding and so you know I one of the things too I

think that's really hard is a lot of people who abuse were

were abused. Hurt people, hurt people.

I was, you know, I was sexually abused, mentally abused,

spiritually abused, physically abused.

You know, I I I experienced the whole spectrum of abuse.

And so I was so unhealthy and out of touch with myself and

dissociated for myself that I just, I had no clue what I was

doing. And it's, you know, and then

when a lot of people too, they get healthy, they they just sort

of try to shut that down. They'll never go back there.

You know, we we hold this this terrible belief in society that

once you're a villain, you're always a villain.

There is no redemption, you know yet.

Like how many of our favorite movies are about redemption.

But in society, we're we're like, no, you know, that person

did this thing. They are cancelled.

They're done forever. We are ruining their career.

We're ruining everything about them.

And we never give a person a chance to make amends, to find

their way back to health. And you know, and that actually

in in a lot of ways creates a whole nother level of men's

mental health because a lot of that is directed at men.

A lot of men acted one way because that's how they were

taught to act. It was, it was how they were

like instructed to be. And then it's coming out that

that behavior now is we're becoming more aware and more in

touch and and getting a better understanding is is unhealthy.

But now they are they are done. They're not allowed to make the

changes in their life to become a better leader, to become a

better father, to become a better husband, to become a

better manager or boss. They're just done and and partly

part of that is because once you get into that realm of you can't

be something else. They then have to defend

themselves. They're not allowed to look and

go you know what You're absolutely right.

I totally, totally shit the bed here.

They're not allowed to do that because if they do that, the

rest of their life is cancelled, so.

It's, it's and it becomes justification now and that's not

going to get us anywhere in advancing our society and

evolving. You know who we are and what we

do, yeah. Yeah.

So, so it's it's it's a it's a it's an interesting place to be.

I I try to talk about this because I know a lot of guys are

here. A lot of guys are afraid of if

they come clean, if they own up to their mistakes, if they take

ownership. You know, one of the the first

things that I ask people do when they join our top contractor

group is to own their crap. Like make a post, Own your crap.

This isn't. Oh, I struggle with finances.

It's what's behind that, What's the fear?

What's the emotional crap that's stopping you from actually being

successful? Because we are.

We are what stands between US and success.

Nobody else. It's just us.

Absolutely. And so I I spend a lot of time

being willing to be honest, vulnerable, put this out there,

this, this could cost me clients, this could cost me

hundreds of thousands of dollars, saying this in a very

public arena because of the way that we view things in society.

But helping other men become better men is way more important

to me. Well, I was going to say, well,

we're certainly going to, we're going to do our part to change

that. That's why this whole platform

exists. I mean that that's exactly it.

And and I mean you, you attracted to it immediately when

you found out what my wife and her team are doing, you know

with he changed it. You are, you are the living.

In my opinion, Dan, you're the living embodiment of what he

changed. It is because you know we're

going to keep going, you know. You know for the first seven

years here, who you were, what your relationship looked like is

nowhere near where you are right now.

You are literally the guy that he changed it, poster child in

many ways. Yeah, I changed it.

That's right. I did.

And you did. Yeah.

And I mean, not on my own. That's.

That's the other big thing is not on my own.

I had a lot of help. So it's seven years in my wife

and I and our two kids. We moved to Thailand.

We were there for six months. We were there to do something.

It didn't work out. It's not consequential.

I ended up with a six month holiday.

During that six month holiday I was stressed, I was exploding, I

was angry, I was depressed, I was all the things you're not

supposed to be when you have a six month holiday.

And so when that happened, that was the white, you know, I was

actually just talking to a friend of mine about it.

He said he was like Thailand was the worst thing that ever

happened to you. And I was like, what do you

mean? I'm like, it was the catalyst.

It was the thing perspective. I love perspective.

It was the thing that shone the light on to what was going on.

I no longer had an excuse. I no longer could.

Blame my work. Blame my job.

Blame other relationships. Blame North American stress.

Blame. Keeping up with the Joneses.

You know any of this? I'm on holiday in Thailand

drinking coconuts. Like, why?

Why am I, why am I losing my mind?

So that that was the catalyst that sort of set everything off.

It was also, you know, it gave me the perspective.

It also gave my wife the perspective that there's no,

there's no end to this, unfortunately, because she was.

She was telling herself a story that this wasn't who I was

because she really, truly loved me.

And so she wanted to believe the best about me.

And when all of my excuses faded away and I was still who I was,

what do you do? So we came back and she left and

that sucked. It really sucked.

Did you see it coming at all? Yeah, I mean, I I I did.

I don't think I was willing to be honest with the fact that I

saw it coming. But it was, it was not like we

we were definitely on, like we were definitely there.

It was like what's going to happen next was was sort of the

question. And yeah, so we came back, she

left. We ended up coming back to

Kelowna separated. She got her own place with the

boys who were 3, 1/2 and two at the time.

My youngest son at the time, he's handicapped.

He's he's got a disability. So that creates a bunch of

challenges as well. It also meant that we had to be

talking a lot, which was hard and but she laughed and she made

it very clear that we were done. I kind of held on to the notion

that maybe we could figure it out, but she was like, we are,

we are done. That's, that's what's going on.

So I actually went over there one day because she was supposed

to go away for a few days. I was going to take the boys and

I got there. The boys were not happy.

They were, they did did not want to spend time with dad and so

she cancelled her trip on the spot and just told me to take

off. And so I actually went and I

went and tried to kill myself because that was another

conversation I was just having, was about the idea that suicide

is, is is selfish. And having been there, I can.

I can say that it's very easy for me to follow a person's line

of thought to where in their mind it's the most selfless

thing they can do. You know, I I know it's OK

because other men have done this in this room.

You were not the first in the studio, my friend.

No. Yeah, I I I didn't.

I got to this point where I'm like I am just, I am ruining my

kids lives. I am going to hurt them.

I'm going to perpetuate. I couldn't see a way out of

where I was. I couldn't see a road to being a

healthy father. I had lost my marriage and in my

mind it was if I just go away quietly, they're young, they

won't Remember Me, they won't think about me.

My ex will find another person because she's a wonderful woman

and they will grow up in a healthy family.

That was that was what was going through my head.

That was the story that was right there, and you were

telling yourself that story. Yeah and so I don't really

remember what happened. I I drove away I yeah tried to

end my life ended up waking up in the hospital and that was

when I I finally unfortunately that was that was finally when I

actually accessed the help I needed.

Prior to that, I had reached out a couple times to different

things. I had gone to a a group that

specializes in sexual assault survivors, and I I went in, I

said I'm here to get some counseling and they looked at me

and went, well, we we actually counsel victims, not

perpetrators. Are you kidding me?

Yeah. And I was like, yeah, that's

that's why I'm here. And and so that that started off

really bad. It lasted a couple sessions.

I was like, I just can't do this.

You guys are just not. Oh man.

And I gone to another public mental health and tried to get

some help for PTSD is when I first got the diagnosis for

PTSDCPTSD. Yeah.

And. So it's not like you weren't

seeing professionals along the way.

There was a little bit of that. This was, this was post Thailand

priest Like, yeah, actual separation when I went and did

those things. Last ditch effort, Hail Mary

type stuff. Yeah, I was like, I can see this

is ending. I need to like prove to my wife

that I'm trying to get help. And so I went to that one and

that didn't work. Went to the other one and it

was. But you got a diagnosis out of

it. Yeah, I got a diagnosis.

But that wasn't enough to Yeah, do anything because if I'm not

actually changing, then you know, it's not OK.

And so I I went, they put me in some talk therapy which is if

anybody has PTSD, they actually know that it's a terrible form

of therapy for PTSD. It's yeah, it's just it's not a

healthy option. So I finally I got out of the

hospital. I I got start getting the help I

needed. I went through cognitive

behavioral therapy, which is where you become it.

It's about teaching you to stay in your body, in your emotions,

stay present. It's.

Awareness. It's about awareness.

It's yeah, it's really was awareness one-on-one.

Yeah. And and so I I got on to some

meds, different things like that still on meds today.

It's been years and I went and did a parenting group.

I went and joined a men's emotional support group and I

was doing counseling. So I think in like, in the first

like year I was separated from my wife.

I did hundreds of hours of therapy and counseling and group

coaching and stuff like that. You went to work on yourself.

Yeah, but you know, it was, it was, it was hard.

It was hard. It was hard to be separated.

It was hard to lose everything, start again.

You know, I didn't have a place to live.

I ended up having to go like live with some roommates, you

know, 30 something years old. And I'm living with roommates.

I've got kids. I can't see.

My wife, she put a restraining order on me.

She kind of became afraid of what I would, how I would react

to the whole separation stuff. And so I had to have like

supervisors with my kids and all this kind of stuff and go to

family court. And yeah so it was it was a

really tough time and I think one of the things I I had a

conversation with a young man recently that's going through

something similar and they've got a a little one they just had

and he's you know he's going through a separation with his

his wife and he's like she is building an arsenal against me.

And and I said you know I I hear that when when I went to family

court my wife wrote a 10 page deposition of all the things

I've done wrong. And I'm sure it could have been

longer. And I got to court with one page

and the judge took my page and read it.

And I didn't know I was supposed to submit it before I got to

court. So she was nice enough to read

it. And I'm glad it was one page.

And she, she, she looked at me and she's like, do you have

anything to say? And I said my wife's deposition,

There's things in there I agree with.

There's things I don't. And this this was me at the

time. At this point, I again, my views

changed a little bit. But at the time I said, you

know, there's things in there I agree with.

There's things I don't, but at the end of the day, everything

she wrote is her experience and I can't argue with her

experience. Her experience is her

experience. I just want to be a good dad.

So tell me what you need from me and I'll do that.

Wow. And and the judge actually,

like, she stopped, she looked at me and she, you know, there's

all these other people waiting in the courtroom for their turn

to go up. Yeah, that's how we do it here.

And she looked at me and she said she's like, in all my

years, you were the only man in this situation to have ever said

anything like that to me. And she had a quick conversation

with my wife and they both agreed that I could then see my

kids unsupervised after that. And you know, I think that

there's men were we, You know, I I'm in a lot of men's groups.

I see a lot of men struggling through these things.

And like, I'm gonna lose my kids, I'm gonna lose my family

and get really defensive. And it's, you know, and I get

it. It does feel like the world is

out to get men, especially when there's families involved.

But I think that, you know, heaping more crap on the pile is

just not the way through it. That woman is going to be in

your life forever. One way or another.

If you have kids and you know the the best thing you can do is

disarm them with kindness, not fight them, not fight back.

You know, I I get that there's times and there's places and I'm

not saying don't ever fight for, you know, access to your kids

and stuff like that. I absolutely do.

But I think there's ways of doing that that are kind and the

world reacts very differently to kindness.

It just does it just we're so desperate for kindness that when

we experience it it it doesn't go unnoticed.

And so I think that's. I think that's kind of what

happened in that situation. And so, yeah, we the.

Tikva. OK, so, So the judge, he

obviously said something that that, you know, you know, OK,

perk the judge's ears up. What about Tifa at that point

there? Did she, did she take note of

that? You said they had a

conversation, so obviously, she agreed.

Honestly, I was like completely triggered, OK.

No, no, I feel you. I.

Feel you I was very I had a lot of anxiety.

Anxiety hinders our ability to make memories.

And so I I was just like trying to remain calm and not like lose

my crap and but still be yourself and not not get like

angry but like just like breakdown crying in that

situation. And so I yeah, So I don't really

remember. I just know that they agreed and

we were able to move on. And so we spent two years.

Yeah, two years separated and. And you were working on yourself

the whole time? I was working on myself the

whole time and you know, when we were separated, we were

separated. I was paying child support.

She had her own place. I had my own place.

We had rules set out by an arbitrator person about how we

interacted. So this was not like a, you

know, we were we were essentially at that point

divorced. Everything was split.

It was the relationship's done. So kind of went through that and

then at about two years my wife called me up and I was driving

and she was like, can we talk? And I said, no, you can send me

an e-mail. And she's like, no, no, I really

want to talk to you. I'm like, no, you you can send

me an e-mail. And I I like, you know, like,

but in that time, I had tried a few times to like, see if we

could work it out. And she had made it very clear

that it was not happening. So that's the last time I think

we had tried. I had approached her to see if

we could see if something had worked out, could work out was

eight months before this. So at that point she had told me

she was serving with papers and I was just waiting for them to

come in the mail. When they came, she said she was

doing it so like, OK, great at. That point had you resigned

yourself and said OK if I get this done?

Yeah, no, I I had actually moved on.

I was starting to you know interact with other women and

yeah, you know do that kind of thing.

That was that was I was. You were done.

You would. You would accept.

It so when she called me and was like, can we chat?

I'm like, no, just send me an e-mail.

Yeah, I'm talking about we're good.

Life's going on. I got my business.

I started my business while we were separated.

Yeah. And yeah.

And so she she was like, no, we really need to talk.

I'm like, OK, fine, so I'm like, you can talk on the phone that

way. If this goes sideways, I'll just

hang out. And I told her that.

So anyway, we talked and she was like, no, like, I want to, I

want to have a conversation with you and see if we can sort some

things out and, you know, give it a chance.

And so wow, that that caught me off guard.

And I actually remember, yeah, I actually went to my buddy's

place after that and I talked to him and he was like, So what are

you going to do? And I'm like, I don't know.

I don't know if I want this. Like, I mean, it's done.

We've got a routine. Things are happening.

I don't, I don't. I don't know that this is what I

want. I don't know if I want to, like,

put myself in the place of risking a repeat of the first

seven years. Right.

Or, you know, the last nine years of my life at that point.

And so yeah, so anyway, we. But we we did.

And and initially it was. And I've told her this was way

more for the kids than it was for her, that I was willing to

see where this would go. And yeah, she had done a ton of

work on herself during that time as well.

She became a much stronger assertive woman.

Which I absolutely love. Today, she's way less passive,

way less. Like she wasn't gonna enable me.

To yeah, ain't no doormat in her now there.

Was none of that, like? And that was part of what

happened the first seven years. Is that she?

Yeah. She wasn't trying to enable me,

but she was by staying around and not just saying like, enough

is enough? Yeah, and leaving because, I

mean, had she left at year three, you know, maybe I would

have dealt with my shit. Patterns might not 5.

Years earlier and done way less damage.

And you know, that's not her fault.

That was just, that was her thing, right?

That's this is nobody's fault. This is what happens in

relationships. We fight for the relationship.

We're taught to fight for the relationship.

So in her mind, she was fighting for the relationship, staying

there. She was doing the best she could

and you know it's and now it's it's been another year four

years we've got two lovely daughters post separation.

We we kind of declared our first marriage over.

We don't really I mean as much as we're still technically

legally married because we never legally got divorced.

We don't we don't say that we're we're like we're partners.

That's kind of how we talk about it.

I actually proposed to her again after we separated and then got

back together to really kind of renew, not renew but like start

new. Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean like today I look

back on her. I mean the best thing she ever

did was leave my ass. I absolutely this is the best

thing she ever did. This is the best thing she ever

did for me. It was the best thing she ever

did for herself. It's the best thing she ever did

for our kids was leave me. And I mean in the at the time.

Oh hell no. No, of course not.

But you know with with a bunch of years of being able to look

back on it, see where I am today.

You know the work that I did that enabled me to start my

construction company which has been absolutely fantastic

because like I never could have done that prior.

I would have failed miserably. I was.

I was so dysregulated all the time.

Well, you talk about that culture of, you know, you the

guy being yelled at. Now you become the guy who yells

at people. Yeah that that was where he was

at. I would have just failed

miserably And so now it's you know yeah the best thing she

ever did was leave me and I mean that's that is you know it it

it's been enough time that there's you know I I can just

sit comfortably with that now and and be OK with it And she

continues to do some amazing work on herself.

I continue to do work on myself. You know we we just moved to a

new city that's had some challenges.

She went and found me another support group to go to.

So I'd be going on Monday nights.

I'd go to men's group and you know get to share my crap and

hear other men share their crap and support each other and you

know just take that time to really intentionally check in

with myself and you know be a better me.

And yeah so it's that's that's sort of that's the sort of the

story. Yes.

Yeah and it. But it's I think like one of the

one of the things too when we were separated was that she.

No, not she. Sorry.

When we were separated, I I started designing my life.

I started part of the cognitive behavioral therapy was to start

living intentionally. And so I started to kind of go,

what do I want my life to look like?

What do I want out of life? And so when I started to really,

like, start living intentionally, that was actually

the point that she took interest in me again, 'cause she could

see that I had. I had finally, truly let her go

what she needed and she could. She started to actually see me

be happy for probably the first time ever in my life.

And The thing is, it's not like you were broadcasting that to

her, telling her all that. You know, you were in a routine

at that point where. But she just saw it.

She saw the way that you were acting, living, communicating,

that kind of a thing. It wasn't a show in any way,

shape or form. That was just you living your

new life. Yeah.

What you had learned. Isn't that interesting?

I one of the things that I'm I want to be there for are guys

who are in the situation right now, whatever that looks like

for them and and and really at the end of the day, what I see,

the way that I respond to your story is that you empowered

yourself. You may not have known that, but

you were kind of powerless when you were at your rock bottom

moment and then you started taking steps to create

empowerment. Ways that that that you can deal

with every little situation of life, ways that you can deal

with the big situations that you were dealing with to cope.

Guys who are approaching maybe have hit the rock bottom and

they don't even know it's their rock bottom yet.

Like you didn't know that that was your rock bottom at the

time, only through reflection. Now we know that, right?

What are some of the things that you would say to to guys like

you know the young man who called you this last week or

whatever. What are some of the, what are

some of the the Nuggets of of of knowledge that you have picked

up along the way? Man, there's a lot of them.

Yeah, there are. You're a plethora.

That is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow right there.

I drew you a softball, except it's kind of not a softball.

It's almost like 10 softballs coming out of you because

because you are a plethora of this stuff.

Like you are like talking to you when you and I go for coffee

when you're in town. Just listening to the, I'm going

to say the wisdom that just kind of falls out of your mouth just

talking about benign shit. It's just, yeah, I mean, you got

a lot of it. And so if if there's guys who

are suffering, what are some of the things that that you think

are kind of hallmark necessities?

Yeah, perspective's a big one. You know, I it might sound bad,

but it's one of the reasons I love men's group is because I

get to go here that other men are struggling too.

You're not alone. You're not alone, but.

I'm not alone and sometimes they're struggling way more than

I am and it makes me feel good about myself.

There's that. Perspective.

Maybe that's a terrible thing to say, but I'm like, when when

you're faced with somebody who is doing so much worse than you,

it makes your stuff feel like you can deal with it, you know?

And and we all go through where Ari's stuff is the worst.

And that's OK, but it's also knowing that at some point your

stuff's not gonna be the worst in the room.

Yes. Right.

That's the the. Remember that.

Remember that at some point you know this too shall pass.

You know it's, you know we're we're not going to hand off here

is, you know not this. You shall not pass.

No, no. You will pass and you will go

on. And if you do it intentionally,

you know if you really engage with it, if you don't shy away

from it, if you're willing to look yourself in the mirror and

really face yourself, you can move past it.

Yes. You know me moving past it when

we're separated did not mean that we got back together.

It meant that I went and started my living my life.

I shifted gears. I started becoming a good dad.

I became the dad I wanted to be because I became in touch with

myself. I taught my kids to do a bunch

of the stuff that I was learning in a in cognitive behavioral

therapy. We'd, we'd walk through the mall

and my boys would be losing their crap over a toy.

And I'd be like, all right guys, we're doing it.

And they would be like, no. And I'm like, yeah, we're doing

it. I'm like smell the flowers, blow

out the candles. And so we'd all we'd walk

through them all and we'd be like, and I would do it with

them And all three of us would be raising our arms to the sky.

Stretch it out, stretch your back, stretch your muscles,

stretch your breathing, Breathe in through your nose, out

through your mouth, regulate yourself, get back in touch.

And I just became unashamed. I'm like, no, this is this is

the crap we need to be teaching young men.

If I had been taught this, I wouldn't have gone through what

I just went through. If I had been taught this, my

dad would have been a healthy man and not abusing the family

because he would have been practicing this and he would be

in touch with what he was doing and the cause and effect and how

his actions were impacting the people around him.

And so for me, like, even, you know, as you were doing your

intro, I could feel this wave of anxiety coming in.

So I was I I did a couple breathing exercises just while

we're sitting here really quietly, silently.

And I just regulate myself now in the moment whenever I start

to feel that anxiety. You know, anxiety is something

that I deal with every day. And anxiety is unmanaged

emotions. That's what anxiety is.

So manage those emotions. Who's in charge?

Me or the emotions? Tell my kids all that time that

all the time they're they'll be losing their crap.

I'm like, who's running the show here, guys?

You or your emotions? Me.

Great. Let's do some breathing.

You know, my son, Let's do fingers.

Breathe in, breathe out. Breathe in, breathe out.

You know, we got all these different things that we do to

help regulate ourselves in the moment.

You know, it took him to karate for the first time, for jiu

jitsu for the first time a couple weeks ago and at one

point he was struggling. He's new to the class.

There's a bunch of kids his age that have been doing this for

years. He's he's never done it.

And you know, he went and sat in the corner and was having a

moment because he he deals with anxiety a lot to do with the way

I parented him for the first three years of his life.

You know, I I damaged my son. I have to live with that.

But I also get to know that I get to help him find his way out

at 10 years old, not at 33 and married kids.

There you go. Right.

And so he's sitting in the corner of the room having a

moment, and I'm like, I look at him across the room.

I didn't even say nothing. I just started doing fingers.

And he's like, looks at me, he's like fingers.

So he sat there and he did, he did the exercise for, you know,

he did it twice. And then he was back in the

class having fun, you know, and he just learning to manage

himself and not derail himself for a long time, right.

And so that's that's one of those things.

I think there's there's 1000 tools out there.

I have. I have practices I do before I

go to bed. I have practices.

I have all these check insurance that I do.

The other thing is to have empathy for yourself as men.

We are not taught empathy especially, I mean maybe younger

men now, but like definitely not our age.

You know in our late 30s forties.

This is not a. We are not an we were not taught

empathy and and so I I had to learn there there's this there's

this Bible verse like growing up in the church and I think

everybody knows it. It's like it's it's the, you

know. The Golden Rule.

Yeah, it's not not the golden rule, but it's like love.

Love your neighbor as you love yourself, right?

Everybody's heard that, and the reality is we can't love our

neighbor unless we love ourselves.

And we will only love our neighbor to the extent that we

love ourselves. Oh, there you go.

So if we are not loving ourselves, we are not loving

anybody around us. And that is an amazing thing to

check in with yourself and go, how am I loving myself right

now? Yeah, you know, when I'm

struggling with clients, when I'm struggling with employees,

when I am struggling in life, I have to start by checking in

with myself and going, am I loving myself?

When was the last time I did some self-care?

When was the last time I checked in with myself?

When was the last time I engaged with my emotions?

And I have to start there and then I I kind of, I unpack that

and then I can go engage with those people in a healthy way.

Otherwise, it's just all day long.

Because I am not extending empathy to myself, which means I

am not extending empathy to anybody else.

And so learning how to have empathy with myself was was

probably the number one thing that I learned while I was

separated from my wife. That was, that was, that is the

number one thing. Being able to sit with my

emotions, being able to not have to justify them, not have to be

defensive, not have to. Just being allowing myself to be

a freaking human. Yeah.

Like we, we have feelings. We're allowed to have feelings.

I I didn't go and share those feelings with everyone.

I would go find a quiet park bench somewhere alone where

there was nobody. And I would like sit down and I

would go, OK, what what am I feeling?

And I would, I'd feel the the weight in my chest, especially

when we're separated. And it was sadness.

It was loneliness. It was, you know, depression.

It was loss. It was, you know, it was all of

these things. None of it was angry, but it was

all coming out as angry because I wasn't allowing myself to be

in touch with it. And when I became in touch with

it, I again, I didn't have to explain it there.

There's this belief in in Buddhism that we are conduits

for emotion, for experiences and what we our job as humans is to

be an expression. Yeah.

So when we're feeling sad, it's our job to actually feel that

sadness, express the sadness, and let the sadness go.

Right. And that's a big part of empathy

is is allowing ourselves to actually feel that.

Express it in a safe, controlled, healthy way and then

let it go. We don't need to hold on to it.

We don't need to. We don't need to, like, keep it

there. You know, the funny video we

just watch, you know, repress it.

Repress it. No.

Then you become emotionally constipated and the only thing

you're going to feel is, you know, hungry, happy or hungry,

horny and angry, right. That's the three men's emotions,

you know? And that's those are the only

emotions you're going to feel if you're not actually allowing

yourself to feel. Well, you know, the process that

you just talked about about releasing it.

If you interrupt something in that process, which many men do,

you interrupt that process. That's when things start getting

backed up. And the way that when things get

backed up, the way that they come out usually isn't pleasant.

Come out sideways. Yeah.

You don't want poop to come out sideways.

No, no, it's messy. It's you spend a lot of time on

your hands and knees cleaning the toilet.

That's right. That's right.

I, you know, as I've said in many of these broadcast time

gets slippery as we do these things.

I can't thank you enough for coming here to talk about this

stuff before we before we finish off this time and and we're

going to have you back at some point to talk about other stuff

because you are a plethora of of of of knowledge of wisdom of

experience and I just appreciate you sharing it today other guys

are practical. You're very practical extremely

practical. You know and and I think that I

think that people have have maybe gotten a a taste of that

today but you ain't seen nothing yet he's yeah the guy is so

practical any resources that that come to mind any books any

speakers any people who for for guys who want to maybe reach out

and start start looking at some of these things that that that

come to mind as I say that. He changed it right there.

You know the biggest resource in the room right now, Hey, the,

you know, I one of the books for me with PTSD was The Body Keeps

the Score. That was an incredible book,

really helped me, really helped me understand and explain what

was going on and actually begin to put words to the the the, the

experiences and the stuff that was triggering me.

Another term to look into if you're feeling like really

disconnected is cognitive behavioral therapy.

There's a lot around that. And there's lots of resources.

Oh yeah, like, I mean that's a huge thing that they use with

the Army, with PTSD and stuff like that.

That is a very well researched. Well resourced.

Yeah, I think, you know, I I would take a look around at your

local, local counseling places. A lot of the shelters, different

things. They they offer these groups in

the evening like you know where you can go and do this stuff.

You know, for me that the men's group.

I had a men's group here in Kelowna that I went to for, you

know, four years straight every Monday.

And now I'm going to another one on the island.

I know there's one in my town in Courtney, there's one in

Nanaimo, there's one here in Kelowna.

They they are popping up. They're becoming more and more

common as people are seeing the need for it.

So I would, I would look around for something like that.

That would be something else as well.

I mean, there's there's so many things.

I think just be kind to yourself.

Kindness doesn't go unnoticed. Yeah, and start with yourself.

Like you said, just like love. Just like love.

Love yourself, right? Be kind to yourself and and if

you can, learn to empathize with yourself and realize that we're

not just monsters, we are humans and and and we all have many of

the same fallibilities as each other.

If we can empathize with ourselves, then we can start

dealing better with others and empathizing others.

It just. And.

And you're allowed to change. Yeah, that's OK.

Society tells us that we're not. We are what we are.

That's not the case. You know, we can change.

You have permission to change. You know, give yourself

permission. I give you permission.

You have permission to change. There you go.

I love you brother. I thank you so much for, for,

for, for coming here and and and talking about this stuff.

I love you. I love your family.

Please give my best to Teak. And well, I'm going to send her

a message after this, talking about how how brilliant of a job

that you did here. I can already tell you she's

proud of you. I'm proud of you.

I'm proud to know you. And I'm grateful you're in my

life. Thank you so much for coming on

Heat Cast today, brother. Thank you so much, Mike.

I really, I really appreciate the opportunity to share my

story. Oh.

Man, it's awesome. Yeah.

This is why we do what we do. And he's, he's right.

I am excited to be here. I'm excited to to be front row

of these amazing, insightful conversations.

You know, This is why we're growing this thing and we don't

want to grow it alone. So please reach out, go to

hechangedit.com. There's lots of ways that you

can reach out to the team as he changed.

It unfolds and develops. I'll tell you I'll, I'll throw

this out there as well. We're developing actively the He

Changed It men's group that we're hopefully going to have

that anybody will be able to do a men's group.

We're going to have a template and and and and so watch for

that. We're working with a whole bunch

of people on on that. There's lots of big things that

are coming from He changed it. I just so grateful that we are

in a world that people are open to change because I think at the

end of the day, some of the things that that Dan talked

about here, some of these stigmas, they just need to be a

thing of the past and we need to we need to innovate just as well

mentally as we are technologically and that's

common. So, so grateful to be a part of

this movement. That has been another episode of

he cast the official podcast of He Changed it.

My name is Mike Chisholm. Go change something.